On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 21:59 Donald Stufft, <don...@stufft.io> wrote: > > > On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Brett Cannon <br...@python.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft <don...@stufft.io> wrote: > >> We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core >> developer is, and all other systems pull from that. >> > > Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs > definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit > privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not > sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone > historically happened to be a core developer. > > > We have that I am aware of right now: > > - GitHub > - bugs.p.o > - python-committers > > And it sounds like Marc-Andre is looking to add to it: > > - A third party/user facing list of developers, regardless of the > technical status of their ability to commit (e.g. even if they don’t have a > GitHub account). > > > There may be other systems that I can’t recall off the top of my head (is > anything still in hg.python.org? I dunno). >
For us, hg.python.org only has the b.p.o code. > As of right now, I believe the list of who a core developer is and has > historically been somewhat adhoc based upon who has permissions to commit > things. > Yep. Meaning that as we transition from one system to another we “lose” the > ability to account for people over the years. This would also make it > harder for someone to come back, because they’d have to track down someone > who knew they were a core developer (and let’s be honest, human memory > sucks so sometimes you’re just not sure if someone was or wasn’t). > Yes, us old-timers aren't perfect. 😉 If someone couldn't remember we would probably go into the mailing list archives. > So I think it would probably be a good thing if we had one central > location that answers the question of who is and isn’t a core developer, > that isn’t tied to the ACLs of one particular system that we happen to be > using today. Ideally these other related systems (bugs.p.o, Github, etc) > are then modified to pull from this thing as the singular source of truth. > This could be as simple as a CSV/tom/yaml file sitting in a repository > somewhere that lists all of the developers, their status etc, plus scripts > that will synchronize access from that to the relevant places. > It would probably sit in the devguide. The question is how to potentially display this in a readable format? Or maybe we don't care as long as we use a format that makes both humans and computers happy? Otherwise we would have to add a build step to the site. (Personally I say we do it in TOML since it's readable and can still be writable through the GitHub web UI since I am typically the person adding new folks 😁; we can then just link to it for people to peruse.) > So for arguments sake, it could be a CSV file with the schema: > > Name, Email, Active, bugs.p.o Username, GitHub username > I would toss into the year joined. I know over in the GitHub issue about this topic that people also don't want to lose mentor/voucher/proposer and any notes about why the person got their commit privileges. > And then a script that could be ran whenever that would check the > permissions of the GitHub team for CPython, and ensure that anyone listed > there has been added to the GitHub team (and probably anyone who isn’t, has > been removed, to ensure that getting in this file is the _way_ you get > access). Likewise bugs.p.o could pull from this, and Marc-Andre’s public > facing list could as well. > > Of course we can get fancier than a simple file somewhere, the key thing > is that there is a single source of truth, that isn’t tied to one > particular service or tool that we use (unless that tool is dedicated to > managing this list of people), because anytime we tie maintaining this list > of people to the technical aspects of giving someone an ACL to a particular > system, then our list is going to become outdated anytime we switch systems > (and some % of people won’t ever make the jump to the new system). > > > Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the > "lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across > systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list > useful for systems to interact with. We could solve this by using a table > instead of a list for people to list e.g. their GitHub and b.p.o usernames > if people wanted to go that route. > > >> >> > On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <m...@egenix.com> wrote: >> > >> > Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the >> > one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility. >> > >> > This is about having a record of the core developer status available >> > to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations, >> > government agencies, etc. >> > >> > Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal >> > use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group >> > is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already >> > serve that purpose. >> > >> > >> > On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote: >> >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer < >> stefan.richtho...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email >> >>>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> I always thought there were already at least three places containing >> the >> >>> necessary email addresses. >> >>> >> >>> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list. >> >>> >> >> >> >> The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails >> for >> >> people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email >> from a >> >> personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation). >> >> >> >> >> >>> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it >> is >> >>> mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which >> AFAIK >> >>> requires a confirmed email address. >> >>> >> >> * Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement >> >>> https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains >> a >> >>> mandatory email field >> >>> >> >>> So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all? >> >>> >> >> >> >> Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this >> >> point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to >> too >> >> many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we >> will >> >> need a place to send ballots. >> >> >> >> Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition >> of it >> >> being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing >> list >> >> is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay >> with >> >> long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm >> personally >> >> fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit >> >> privileges then that's a separate challenge. >> >> >> >> -Brett >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith <e...@trueblade.com>: >> >>> >> >>>> On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I think it would also be a good idea to include core >> developers >> >>>>>>> of other Python implementations in such a document, in >> >>>>>>> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy, >> >>>>>>> Stackless, etc >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to >> >>>>>>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate >> Python >> >>>>>>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website? >> They >> >>>>>>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and >> everything, >> >>>>>>> right? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core >> >>>>>> developers. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only >> >>>>> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded >> >>>>> this in one place. >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core >> devs, or >> >>>> more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we >> moved to >> >>>> github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or >> not) for >> >>>> all core devs, and I gave up without much success. >> >>>> >> >>>> I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for >> people >> >>>> who have been given the "core dev" status. >> >>>> >> >>>> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are >> >>>>>> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will >> >>>>>> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never >> moved to >> >>>>>> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them >> easily >> >>>>>> enough. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you >> >>>>> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have >> >>>>> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status. >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting >> email >> >>>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them. >> >>>> >> >>>> Eric >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> python-committers mailing list >> >>>> python-committers@python.org >> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> >>>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> python-committers mailing list >> >>> python-committers@python.org >> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> >>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> python-committers mailing list >> >> python-committers@python.org >> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > Marc-Andre Lemburg >> > eGenix.com >> > >> > Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018) >> >>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ >> >>>> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/ >> >>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/ >> > ________________________________________________________________________ >> > >> > ::: We implement business ideas - efficiently in both time and costs ::: >> > >> > eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH Pastor-Loeh-Str.48 >> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Pastor-Loeh-Str.48+%0D%0A+D-40764+Langenfeld,+Germany&entry=gmail&source=g> >> >> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Pastor-Loeh-Str.48+%0D%0A+D-40764+Langenfeld,+Germany&entry=gmail&source=g>> >> D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany >> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Pastor-Loeh-Str.48+%0D%0A+D-40764+Langenfeld,+Germany&entry=gmail&source=g>. >> CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg >> > Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611 >> > http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/ >> > http://www.malemburg.com/ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > python-committers mailing list >> > python-committers@python.org >> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers >> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> >> >
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