On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 6:48 PM Victor Stinner <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi, > > tl; dr How can we decide if we should stop using mailing list or if we > should stop using discuss.python.org? > > > https://discuss.python.org/ is getting more and more categories: > packaging, users, ideas, committers, core workflow, etc. Slowly, more > and more existing mailing lists get their category on > discuss.python.org. > > Problem: Nobody decided if a topic should always be started on > discuss.python.org or the "related" mailing list. I just started "Vote > to promote Cheryl Sabella as a core developer" thread on the > Committers category of discuss.python.org. I'm not sure that everybody > "migrated" to discuss.python.org, so sometimes I like to send an email > "hey, by the way, have a look at this thread on discuss.python.org: > (...)" to ensure that everybody will see my message. For a vote to > promote a contributor it's important that everybody is aware that a > vote is open (but everyone is free to decide to vote or to abstain). > > There is also a high risk of having a topic discussed twice on mailing > list and discuss.python.org. I will happen on controversal changes > (PEPs), trust me :-) > > More generally, I dislike having too many communication channels for > the same thing :-( (I'm not talking about Zulip/IRC vs mail/Discourse, > Zulip/IRC is a different way to discuss, and ways are useful/needed.) > > "PEP 8100 -- January 2019 steering council election" says "Of the 96 > eligible voters, 69 cast ballots." The Python core developers group of > GitHub has currently 96 members: > > https://github.com/orgs/python/teams/python-core/members > > But I only count 72 members on discuss.python.org: > > https://discuss.python.org/groups/committers > > I count 27 core devs who didn't vote for PEP 8100 and 24 who are not > on discuss.python.org yet. > > > I see the following options: > > (A) Close the mailing list: make it read-only, but keep archives. Ask > all mailing of the mailing list to move to discuss.python.org. > > (B) Close discuss.python.org. Ok, it was nice, but it's time to move > back to mailing list. discuss.python.org becomes read-only. > > (C) Do nothing: keep mailing list and discuss.python.org > > We can make the same choice for all "categories" / "mailing lists", or > we can have a different choice (ML vs Discourse) per category / > mailing list. > > Please, don't start a long serie of "+1" or "-1". My question here is: > how can we take a decision? Should we ask the fresh Steering Committee > to take a definitive decision? > > Please don't start a thread about the advantages and disavantages of > mailing lists and Discourse. It has been discussed multiple times. > There is a dedicated section on discuss.python.org! > > https://discuss.python.org/c/site-feedback > > IMHO we had enough time to "experiment" Discourse. The 10 governance > PEPs have been mostly discussed there: PEP 8000, 8001, 8010, 8011, > 8012, 8013, 8014, 8015, 8016, 8100. We saw many threads with more than > 50 messages. Search for threads about voting methods for example :-) > We had enough time to see advantages and drawbacks of Discourse. We > started to see "real" moderation (handle trolls / CoC incidents). I > also saw the nice Discourse feature "start a new thread": move some > messages into a new topic. > > Right now, I mostly care about python-committers mailing list vs > Committers category on discuss.python.org. But we will quickly have a > similar question for python-dev mailing list vs <whatever on > discuss.python.org> (I asked to create a new category, it's not > created yet). > > It's not easy for me to not give my opinion on the topic :-) But > again, my only question here is: how can we take a decision? Who will > take the decision? > IMO since the people who are gonna use these communication channels are mostly gonna be core developers (or is Users category also included in the migration plan?) I think the council should take into account how core-devs feel about this first. Opinions may have changed over the course of the last 3 months, but there was a poll back in November showing how many of us were not happy to abandon the mailing lists: https://discuss.python.org/t/how-do-you-find-discourse-so-far/429 ...and that does not include the 24 core devs who never joined discuss. So at the very least I would appreciate having a new poll to understand whether/how things changed in the meantime. FWIW my main concern about discuss remains the long term archival topic described here: https://discuss.python.org/t/discourse-archive-and-backup/637 -- Giampaolo - http://grodola.blogspot.com
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