EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad. On Thu, May 3, 2018, 11:57 Brian Curtin <br...@python.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:45 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < > python-dev@python.org> wrote: > >> On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore <p.f.mo...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano <st...@pearwood.info> wrote: >>> >>> >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of >>> wording >>> >> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity >>> >> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn" >>> >> reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but >>> >> apparently it can be offensive. >>> > >>> > I'm Anglo-Saxon[1], and honestly I believe that it is thin-skinned to >>> > the point of ludicrousness to say that "no-one gives a damn" is an >>> > insult. This isn't 1939 when Clark Gable's famous line "Frankly my >>> dear, >>> > I don't give a damn" was considered shocking. Its 2018 and to not give >>> a >>> > damn is a more forceful way of saying that people don't care, that they >>> > are indifferent. >>> >>> Sigh. That's not what I was saying at all. I was trying to point out >>> that Antoine's claim that people should ignore the rhetoric and that >>> complaining about the attitude was unreasonable, was in itself unfair. >>> People have a right to point out that a mail like the OP's was badly >>> worded. >>> >>> > With respect to Paul, I literally cannot imagine why he thinks that >>> > *anyone*, not even the tkinter maintainers or developers themselves, >>> > ought to feel *offended* by Ivan's words. >>> >>> Personally, they didn't offend me. I don't pretend to know how others >>> might take them. But they *did* annoy me. I'm frankly sick of people >>> (not on this list) complaining that people who work on projects in >>> their own time, free of charge, "don't care enough" or "are ignoring >>> my requirement". We all do it, to an extent, and it's natural to get >>> frustrated, but the onus is on the person asking for help to be polite >>> and fair. And maybe this response was the one where I finally let that >>> frustration show through. I may read less email for a week or two, >>> just to get a break. >>> >> >> I had the same response as Paul: annoyed. And while Ivan thought he was >> using "emotional language to drive the point home that it's not some >> nitpick", it actually had the reverse effect on me and caused me not to >> care because I don't need to invite annoyance into my life when putting in >> my personal time into something. >> >> No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's >> something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking up >> about the tone are saying that you can also wait until you're not so upset >> to write an email. This was never going to be resolved in an hour, so >> waiting an hour until you're in a better place to write an email that >> wasn't quite so inflammatory seems like a reasonable thing to ask. >> >> Let me express things right from the horse's mouth. >> >> The sole purpose of the tone was to not let the mesage be flat-out >> ignored. >> I had my neutral-toned, to-the-point messages to mailing lists flat-out >> ignored one too many times for reasons that I can only guess about. >> This time, the situation was too important to let that happen. >> >> Whatever anyone may think of this, it worked. I got my message through, >> and got the feedback on the topic that I needed to proceed in resolving the >> problem that caused it. >> I seriously doubt I could achieve that with a neutral-toned message just >> stating the facts: dry facts would not show ppl how this could be important >> ("ah, just another n00b struggling with Tkinter basics" or something). >> > > As I said on the other thread, that doesn't make it any more acceptable as > over time it normalizes the behavior. If enough people want results—because > yes, sometimes things break, it's not fun, and sometimes things don't > receive response in the most timely fashion—they'll take that tone and > sometimes get what they want. Eventually it'll work enough that it becomes > more acceptable to behave that way, and eventually the people who are > willing to accept that type of behavior will be gone. > _______________________________________________ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org >
_______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com