On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 09:07 Guido van Rossum <gu...@python.org> wrote:
> Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such > crossed messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing > list). > > I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion > about civility we're going to have at the Language Summit. > And I will also want to say thanks for the email, Steven! I agree with everything you said and that any expectations we have of others should apply equally to anyone on this list in any interaction. And I think it's especially true in our responses as we should try to keep the moral high ground by being examples of what we expect and want from others. > > On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 8:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano <st...@pearwood.info> > wrote: > >> On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +0000, Brett Cannon wrote: >> >> > No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's >> > something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking >> up >> > about the tone are saying that you can also wait until you're not so >> upset >> > to write an email. This was never going to be resolved in an hour, so >> > waiting an hour until you're in a better place to write an email that >> > wasn't quite so inflammatory seems like a reasonable thing to ask. >> >> Certainly! >> >> I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying, >> unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. He could >> have done better. >> >> But *we* should be better too. Our response to Ivan has not been >> welcoming, and as a community we haven't lived up to our own standards, >> as we have piled onto him to express our rightous indignation: >> >> 1. Guido responded telling Ivan to calm down and work off his >> frustration elsewhere. And that's where things should have >> stopped, unless Ivan had persisted in his impoliteness. >> >> 2. Brian upped the ante by bringing the CoC into discussion. >> >> 3. Paul raised it again by describing Ivan's post as "offensive". >> >> 4. And now, Steve H has claimed that Ivan's initial post was >> bordering on "abusive". >> >> We've gone from rightly treating Ivan's post as intemperate and >> impolite, and telling him to chill, to calling his post "offensive", to >> "abusive". (Next, I presume, someone will claim to be traumatised by >> Ivan's email.) >> >> Just as Ivan should have waited until he had calmed down before firing >> off his rant, so we ought to resist the temptation to strike back with >> hostility at trivial social transgressions, especially from newcomers. >> This is what Ivan actually said: >> >> - Tkinter is broken and partly functional (an opinion with only the >> most tenuous connection with fact, but hardly abusive); >> >> - that nobody cares (factually wrong, but not abusive); >> >> - that possibly nobody is using it (factually wrong, but not abusive); >> >> - that if that's the case (it isn't), then it should be removed >> from the std lib (a reasonable suggestion if only the premise had >> been correct). >> >> Intemperate and impolite it certainly was, as well as full of factual >> inaccuracies, but to call it "close to abusive" is a hostile over- >> reaction. We ought to be kinder than that. Our response to Ivan has been >> more hostile, and less open and respectful, than his email that >> triggered the response. >> >> Brett is right to say people can afford to wait a little while before >> firing off an angry email. But the same applies to us: we too can afford >> to wait a little while before raising the threat of the CoC over a minor >> social faux pas. This community isn't so fragile that we have to jump >> down the throat of a newcomer lest the community immediately collapses >> into Call Of Duty gamer culture. >> > >> >> -- >> Steve >> _______________________________________________ >> Python-Dev mailing list >> Python-Dev@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev >> > Unsubscribe: >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org >> > > > > -- > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) > _______________________________________________ > Python-Dev mailing list > Python-Dev@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > Unsubscribe: > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/brett%40python.org >
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