On 28 Sep 2013 00:08, "Stephen J. Turnbull" <step...@xemacs.org> wrote: > > Nick Coghlan writes: > > > I'm not sure what usage model you're assuming for _ensurepip, but it > > appears to be wrong. End users should be able to just run pip, and > > either have it work, or else get a message from the OS vendor telling > > them to install the appropriate system package. > > I don't understand how you arrange for that message on existing > installs. Wouldn't it be easier to just lobby the distros to make > Python dependent on pip?
Most distros of interest already emit that message - it's part of a standard mechanism to check for system packages if a command isn't found (and I believe even RHEL and derivatives may support this for pip if the EPEL repo is enabled). > And speaking of vendors, do you expect Apple > and Microsoft to provide such a message? And such a system package? No, that's why the proposal is to modify the CPython installers for those platforms. > > If you already are running a Linux distro or MacPorts, you do "apt-get > python-pip" and "port install py-pip" respectively. I bet Cygwin is > the same with yet another spelling. Where's the problem? You say: > > > New users on Windows and Mac OS X. I've heard many more complaints > > from folks running tutorials about the pip bootstrapping process than > > I ever have from the community at large about the GIL :P > > I bet those users are *not* running third-party distros, but rather > are sitting in front of pretty close to plain vanilla factory installs > of the OS, no? And "new users" on Mac OS X already have "old installs" > of Python, no? No. Instuctors tell users on Mac OS X to install from python.org or use one of the third party package managers. > > That's my model. In that model I don't see backporting PEP 453 to > Python 2.7 as being a sufficiently reliable way to provide a smooth > user experience to justify breaking the "no new features" rule (which > is at the "read my lips" level after the True/False fiasco). You have confirmed my belief that your model is incorrect. The feedback I have received is that the majority of beginners are introduced to Python by downloading the binary installers from python.org for Windows or Mac OS X. > Get a commitment from Apple to put 2.7.6 in their next upgrades for > their OS, and then maybe you'd have enough leverage to tip the > balance. I certainly would concede the point. But without that, > you're telling Mac users "you have to upgrade Python from a 3rd party > site." Is that really the way to make new users participating in a > tutorial session happy? (You tell me, I'm just introspecting here.) Yes, that's exactly what happens. People don't use the system Python on Mac OS X the way they do on *nix systems. Cheers, Nick. > > Steve
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