On 28 Sep 2013 14:12, "Donald Stufft" <don...@stufft.io> wrote: > > > On Sep 27, 2013, at 11:48 PM, "Stephen J. Turnbull" <step...@xemacs.org> wrote: > > > Nick Coghlan writes: > > > >> You have confirmed my belief that your model is incorrect. > > > > *shrug* I just think the risks are higher than acknowledged (just > > because you have so far failed to imagine a problem doesn't mean it > > won't appear), and that the meta effect that "Even Guido admits that > > Python 3 isn't ready for prime time" is perverse. We know, even those > > who have written blanket statements to that effect in this thread, > > that that is false unless conditioned on specific applications. > > I haven't seen anyone say Python 3 isn't ready to be used, just that it > makes more sense for beginners to use 2.7, and I think it does still. > Porting libraries from 2.x to 3.x and translaing the existing corpus of > tutorials, tips, posts, etc isn't a trivial task and one that beginners > are unlikely to grok. > > > > > I understand that the real motivation is that it's churlish to not > > relieve the pain of users who have decided for their own good reasons > > to use Python 2.7, and perverse to ignore the needs of the teachers > > who are going to educate the users about Python 3 at the time they > > consider appropriate. But the meta-message *received* by the public > > is not going to accurately reflect that motivation, and is not going > > to be helpful in encouraging those who already *can* move to Python 3 > > to do so. > > > > Anyway, clearly this exception is heading for approval, and the PEP > > with it. I recommend that the "Feature addition in maintenance > > releases" section be amended to read in its entirety: > > > > The additions of the new module to the standard library in the > > maintenance releases of 2.7 and 3.3 were granted explicit > > exceptions to the rule "no new features in maintenance releases." > > These exceptions were explicitly discussed, and approved in > > consultation with the affected release managers, separately from > > the rest of the PEP. They do not represent a change in policy, > > and must not be considered a precedent for other such exceptions. > > > > Just the facts, ma'am. It's a bad idea to include bullshit about the > > benefit-cost ratio, because it will be cited in future requests for > > similar exceptions. To the extent that people interpret this as a > > forecast and support for a long life for Python 2.7, there is > > substantial risk of such requests. > > Maybe my understanding of the PEP process is flawed, but isn't > part of the point of it to codify the *reasons* for the decisions that > were made? That's why they include information about dissenting > opinions and such? > > I don't think it's dangerous to cite the reasons the decision was came > to. Perhaps it can be toned down but I think it's useful to document > the discussion. I've got a partially done update that tries to capture > the dissenting opinions as well for completeness sake.
We'll put something in pointing out that accepting this change actually makes it even *harder* to advocate for further feature additions in Python 2.7 maintenance releases as there is *zero* chance of backporting language changes, and this PEP means library and builtin updates can easily be a pip install away if someone is willing to create the backport and put it on PyPI (Brandon Rhodes already created the "backports" namespace package as a common home for such efforts, or there's the "2" suffix that has been used in a couple of cases). Cheers, Nick. > > > > > > > Footnotes: > > [1] I do it that way myself, always with the most recent Python 3, > > but haven't yet gotten to the point of needing "pip" (use cases that > > happen to be met by the stdlib). > > _______________________________________________ > > Python-Dev mailing list > > Python-Dev@python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev > > Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/donald%40stufft.io > > > ----------------- > Donald Stufft > PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA >
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