On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Amit Aronovitch wrote: > guy keren wrote: > > >thanks. i'm glad i finally managed to do something you actually aprove of > >whole heartedly ;) > > Sorry for not making it clear - in fact I approve of most of the stuff > I've seen (e.g. the whole Hazor project, this course, the fun attitude, > most of the contents, including what I've read so far from your essays > in LUPG).
what does the LUPG got to do with this? :0 > I purposefully try to read critically and comment about stuff I don't > understand or disagree with - this is a kind of feedback I'd consider > helpful if I was in your place (compliments are fine, but theyr'e not > contents and are not what drives me to produce/fix some). then you're as bad as my mom. what you achieve by this is that i get the impression you don't like anything - and i scratch my head in order to find out what i'm supposed to do. you also place me into a defensive position - it's one thing when people tell you "this is good - here are a few comments". it's another thing when you think people tell you "what the hell are you doing? change it up-side-down!". > <--- snip snip ---> > > >>to eat it or anything, just appreciating a good idea), and will update > >>the wiki sometime soon. > > > >like i was saying - i don't think a wiki is a convinient place to hold > >discussions. > > Any form of communication is only useful if all sides involved use it. > It's a chicken and egg thing: if *you* prefer mail - mail is the most > convenient. I could say alot to try to convince you otherwise, but > that's stuff for another thread. and for another time. > I keep the wiki contents mainly for readers who are not subscribed to > this list. what do you with the wiki is your concern. i wouldn't tell you not to use it, after all. > >how about, instead, taking upon yourself the writing of the slides for > >other mini-lectures, in the same style? i'll send you the program i use > >(which i "stole" from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) so all lecture slides will have the > >same format (even if not necessarily the same spirit)? > > I know you prefer contents than proofing, but I was not able to write > the slides because I did not know your plans (my ideas for solving the > problems I'd mentioned involved major reorganization of the first 3 > meetings, which I knew you would not like). obviously, the 2nd meeting's contents cannot be changed - they need to know how to work in the linux environment - i assume we have no argument about that. the 1st meeting - you eventually seem to accept (most) of the slides - so i'm not going to change it further, other then a small thing here and there. as for the 3rd meeting - i'll use the interactive prompt to demonstrate everything. yet, i will insist on them typing things in an editor and saving script files - because i think in the long run this is better. note that during this lesson they don't need execfile or the tab-completion, so there's no point in introducing it there. i still have to think whether i will introduce this during meeting 5 or not (or perhaps during the functions meeting - it seems like execfile makes sense with functions - not without them). > Please do give a link to the program -I might make use of it next time. which program? the meetings plan? it's on the web site i mentioned, users.actcom.co.il/~choo/python/, 2nd link from the top. or are you reffering to some other program? > <--- snip snip ---> > > >as you see, i chose the 10-minutes method. i'll probably use a shorter > >version of http://nadav.harel.org.il/essays/chofesh/lecture.html - after > >adopting it to high-school kids, and for my taste. as such, i'm going o > >talk - not show slides. > > maybe put this link in the plan? added it to the index page, in the 'slides' section. > <--- snip snip ---> > > >[... example snipped - it is far far far too advanced for people hwo've > >never thought of a program. don't know about you, but i remember how i > >felt when i learned programming for the first time - i had a problem > >writing a simple program to solve the "twice the rice on each chessboard > >square" problem :0 and you're talking about implementing algorithms of > >this length in pseudo-code? not to mention, having to solve a maze with > >pen and paper? i'm trying to attract them - not to push them away ;) > > Supplying the algorithm and dry-running it as an exercise might be easy > enough, yet useful and instructive (gives you a good idea of what an > algorithm is). Then you could be guided into understanding the > algorithm's limitations, and maybe think of the fix yourself (bonus > exercise?). perhaps i could do this as a suplamental around 2-month into the course, when i reffer them to start reading the data-structures mini-book - it'll make more sense by then. by the way, i think you forgot how boring and tedious dry-running is - or you have a less tedious method, then the common one of writing a table of variable states and updating it based on the "executing" commands? > Homework might not be so bad if it's not required and you don't rely on > it being done. i will ask the pupils if they want that. homework means that: 1. i have to do more work (preparing homework, checking it for pupils that did it and want me to look at it). 2. giving the pupils more work to do - which might intimidate some of them. i'm already going to give them the mini-book as homework - and even that only 2-3 month into the course, after they start seeing the fun things (lets face it - the fun in the first few meetings will exist if i dress up as a clown and make slapstics jokes ;) ). > You were thinking of giving the data structures book as > extra reading starting from third lesson, so I was thinking this could > act as extra reading for the first lesson. no, i was (and still am) thinking of giving the data structures book as optional self-study reading material, after we are done with lesson 8 or 10... the only extra reading i'll give pupils to do, if they chose to do it, until this time, is install python at home, and try writing more programs there... you want to have more extra reading material for the earlier stage? vulanteer to prepare it - and make it on par with the level of the rest of the course (and that means, introducing algorithms this early i the course is a no-no). > <--- snip snip ---> > > >>which are not demonstrated in this lesson, and will only be > >>encountered (if at all) far later in this course's plan. > > > >why not demonstrated? demonstrating doesn't mean "showing a python > >program". the can be given analogues from other areas (didn't i do that in > >the slides? if not - i'll add some). > > I was thinking about variables and objects (classes) - for these your > examples refer to the robot game, and I did not think the concept > clearly follows from the example. Maybe I'm wrong. regarding variables - i will need to make it clearer, that the computer need to store the location of the robot somewhere, and that "somewhere" is a variable (or several variables). regarding classes - the robot is a classic object - it has data (it's location) and methods (turn left, turn right, move forward) - what is not clear about that? > <--- snip snip ---> > > >i'll consider using http://www.effbot.org/zone/python-objects.htm to > >modify the variables slide. > > Thanks for the link! > I see I did not google hard enough - if I did I might not have written > that page (luckily I did that in hebrew, so work is not wasted). i didn't mention it before, because i was sure this is old news - i found it in a 15-minutes web search when i wrote my trees and checkers games - that is, the first time i needed to understand the concepts of references, mutable and immutable types in python. > <--- snip snip ---> > > >however! since this intro is not python-specific, i'm not sure i could do > >it here. perhaps i should do it on the meeting in which we talk about > >variables (the 3rd meeting). > > As I said in my reply to Nir's comment - might be a good idea to avoid > talking about variables at that point at all (you'd waste time > explaining an unused concept that will only confuse them). i have to talk about variables, because they will need to use it for the while loops. i do not want to confuse them with talking about names and references and the like, until this is needed - and this will happen when i first talk about lists (which are the first mutable data type we will see in the lessons. references and names are too abstract and meaningless without an example of when you copy data NOT by types. > You can > mention it in the general discussion about programming languages (some > languages do have that), and let them encounter it again when they're > off to learn C or similiar. By that time they would hopefully have some > experience, and would easily grasp it. we'll have to see how it is done. > <--- snip snip ---> > > >i don't realy care what "some people with no sence of humor or sense of > >self-humor think". i'm not going to change this. > > The personal lesson I learned from a few unintentional flamewars: never > underestimate people's capacity to misunderstand. As much as I dislike > it, I now force myself to always put a winking smilie if something is > not ment literally. > > Also - IANAP, so I might be more restrictive - it being non-self-humor. didn't understand this last one :0 > (This is just comments - do whatever you please) i'll consider the smiley, and i am looking for how to write "anal-retentive" in hebrew" - i am pondenring mentioning this as a personality problem that helps programmers, unless given in overdoze ;) > <--- snip snip ---> > > >>* typos: > >>() node 4, first point: "milot mafteah" > >>() node 10, second point: the closing parenthesis appears reverse (at > >>least on my firefox). > >>() node 15, fifth point: "shelet" instead of "kelet" > > > >fixed those (and another one found along the way, and added 1-2 new > >bullets). > > Sorry - couldn't resist: you wouldn't have to fix the typos if it was a > wiki page - I'm sure I'm not the first one to notice them, but many > people who would not bother to comment about such things by mail, would > fix them on wiki (and don't worry - it seems that most people only > directly fix simple typos that they are 100% sure of, otherwise they > tend to add a comment somewhere else so as not to disturb the original > contents). i wouldn't know until i have tried. and unlike a regular FOSS project, which has no deadlines - i have very strict deadlines here - which is why i preffer using the methods i know can yield results - rather then experiment and then find i cannot run the course because the experiment failed too early... -- guy "For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy
