Hi Julie (and everyone else). Thanks for the responses, folks - this is an interesting discussion.
This issue is a complex one. However, I think the days of "weeding out the weak ones" are over for Ireland's CS departments - most today are more concerned with retaining students as the 50% drop-out is a *national figure*. I'm not suggesting that such thinking didn't (doesn't) exist, but it is very much the minority now - thankfully. Part of the issue is that there's this "let's teach them what the Industry wants" attitude at work in first year. The thinking then follows that C/C++/Java/C# are "what the Industry wants" so the sooner students are exposed to these programming technologies, the better. It is ironic that at 50% drop-out, it doesn't matter that students are exposed to "what the Industry wants" in year 1, as you've lost half of them anyway. :-( Given this, it's even more ironic that (at IT Carlow, anyway), no one complains when I cover Python at year 3 and 4, yet they go ape when I suggest using it in first year. Some even go as far as suggesting "it's not a real programming language" which, in my mind, confirms how misinformed some of my co-workers sometimes show themselves to be. There's also a little bit of snobbery going on, too (imagine such a thing at 3rd level!)... there's an attitude that "it was good enough for me, and I learned it, so the same thing is good enough for my students". Sigh. :-( And - of course - like all organizations, change is resisted within 3rd level CS departments, too. This is hard to achieve traction against. There's an awful lot of CS lecturers and professors who actively resist learning anything new (let alone teaching it). Just take a look at some of the offerings available to CAO applicants... it's a bit like the dark ages sometimes. Now... I'm not suggesting that languages like Java, etc., are bad for students. What I am suggesting is that languages like Java, etc., are hard to teach, making them - by definition - a poor first language. Python has no such problems, but - when it comes to this mailing list, anyway - I'm already preaching to the converted. One final point: sometimes lecturers are restricted in what they can teach - if it's on the syllabus, then it *must* be covered or the CS department is in "breach of contract" and could - potentially - be looking at lawsuits. "Your syllabus said you'd teach Java, you used C++ instead and I failed - it's your fault, not mine and now I'm suing you". Believe it or not, this sort of shit happens. At IT Carlow, we've worked hard to remove any mention of specific technologies from our course outlines (which, thankfully, gives me the freedom to do what I want with my courses), but not all 3rd level facilities are so lucky. It's a sorry state of affairs that the possibility of legal action carries such clout... welcome to 21st century Ireland. :-( As I said at the start of this email: this issue is a complex one. But - on a positive note - if we all keep plugging away in what ever way we can, things can only get better, albeit, slowly. :-) Cheers. Paul. -- Paul Barry, w: http://paulbarry.itcarlow.ie, e: [email protected] Lecturer, Computer Networking: Institute of Technology, Carlow, Ireland. (More at: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/3677) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Python Ireland" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pythonireland?hl=en.
