On Apr 4, 2005, at 6:16 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
On Apr 4, 2005, at 16:13, Lee Cullens wrote:
On Apr 4, 2005, at 10:34 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote:
Personally I think these little package idiosyncrasies are what discourage non-hacker users and businesses that might otherwise advance the use of Python, to the benefit of those that have enough experience and skills to prepare and maintain a presentable tool - but we all have a perfect right to our own priorities and outlook.
On Apr 4, 2005, at 10:17, Lee Cullens wrote:
One thing I noticed with your 2.4.1 build is that in the PythonIDE Help menu "Python Documentation" and "Lookup in Python Documentation" are dimmed out (not available). Such in the 2.3 PythonIDE is still available though.
This time I did look in the Mac Python FAQ first, but the suggestion there did not remedy the problem.
I have no idea. If it's broken, it's broken in the source -- I didn't do it. I don't use PythonIDE, so I'm not really interested in tracking it down myself.
I'm not sure I agree with "advance the use of Python". These sorts of people don't generally contribute much back in my experience. They might have "advanced uses for Python", but probably aren't doing anyone else favors. Nobody is paid to make Python on Mac OS X suitable for new users. Those who are (teachers, etc.) haven't bothered to contribute any patches (recently, anyway) as far as I can tell.
I'm talking about a little bit wider perspective Bob. It is one thing in the world of the accomplished hacker/artist to be able to use Python to be more productive, where little idiosyncrasies/bugs are easily worked out when needed because one has the skills. It is also understandable in the culture where one is contributing their time and effort mostly freely, to not quite reach a "polished" package because there is just so much one can get done and there is an over abundance of both necessary and interesting issues to deal with (not to mention too few to deal with them). I've been there in a different "neighborhood," but I also took a little bit wider perspective so I could afford to retire and play in a new "neighborhood."
I'm talking about the idea that if a software environment never progresses substantially beyond hackerdom (i.e. never gains wide acceptance in the professional and business communities) then few of those that contributed so much to the base will benefit materialistically. That's ok if one is retired like myself or has sufficient other earnings, but the world can be a cruel place for those that end up without much. If a software environment like Python were to gain wide acceptance in the professional and business communities there would be even more opportunities for those with the greatest skills because there will always be new issues like evolving protocals, formats and so on, not to mention the language itself.
Just the perspective of a retired software engineer. I can respect your opinion without having to wholeheartedly agree.
Complaining to the tune of "if you don't do this, people won't use Python" isn't going to make anyone do anything. Personally, my top priorities for Python on Mac OS X are to make sure that it works, that I can do everything I want to do with it, and to make sure functionality is available so that people who know what they're doing can get things done. Catering to new users is not a priority of *mine*. Note that there are other people that work on this stuff and might feel differently.
I'm *not* complaining as you put it and I'm *not* trying to make anyone *do* anything. You misunderstand me. I think what you are doing in making Python easier to use on the Macintosh is admirable, as are the efforts of others I don't yet know well enough to single out. Your (and others) efforts make it that much easier for me to further my own skills on the platform I prefer. Primarily, I noted a small problem with the package (as much for everyone's sake as my own), did some initial problem isolation and asked if *anyone* had any solutions or ideas. If none are forthcoming then when I learn to construct a 2.4 help resource I'll include it in the IDLE bundle and share my solution.
I (so far) am using PythonIDE as a simple higher level (than the terminal) alternative. IDLE uses cr line endings instead of the Unix lf which has caused me some annoyances, and though I versonized wxPython so I could get SPE to run I find it has a way to go yet (at least on a Mac OS X platform). Neither am I ready yet to invest in Wing till I get up to speed in this "neighborhood" and I'm watching where Xcode might go.
IDLE's line encoding setting can't be changed?
I've tried several combinations of the IDLE "Options" and still end up with a cr line ending. I'll try again as I would rather use IDLE than PythonIDE and if I'm not successful may eventually "customize" the damn thing unless I've moved on to something I like better. I know I could already pass a script file through a script to change the line endings, but then would have to change back to work with the original script in IDLE again.
Anyway, I looked at the two versions (2.3 and 2.4) of the PythonIDE package and at PytyhonIDEMain.py in particular. There is a self labeled hack in PytyhonIDEMain.py for building the Help menu (telling the Help Viewer about the Python documentation) that looks in two different places. In the 2.3 MacPython version there is an additional resource that satisfies the search, namely Contents/Resources/English.lproj. In the 2.4 version that resource is missing. The other place it looks is in the Python application inside the framework and I haven't tracked that down yet in the 2.3 version to see if it is there also, but it is obviously not there in the 2.4 version. Copying the 2.3 resource into 2.4 would result in 2.3 documentation for the 2.4 version so such is no solution.
So somewhere along the line from the Mac 2.3 version to your Mac 2.4 version the documentation resource was overlooked or dropped for some other reason. Maybe someone has an idea how I could remedy the situation (?) and in the meantime I'll continue developing my skills in this "neighborhood" till I understand enough to solve the issue without screwing something else up.
Unfortunately I'm going to be quite busy for the next week or two, and probably won't be able to research this further. If somebody finds a specific fix, I might be able to do something about it.
Fair enough.
-bob
Thanks for your thoughts, Lee C
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