On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 12:31:47PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2025 at 2:53 PM Michael S. Tsirkin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 14, 2025 at 09:32:47AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2025 at 1:47 AM Michael S. Tsirkin <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2025 at 12:12:38PM -0500, Peter Xu wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2025 at 11:47:51AM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2025 at 11:37:25AM -0500, Peter Xu wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2025 at 11:09:32AM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 07, 2025 at 10:01:49AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > > We used to clear features silently in
> > > > > > > > > virtio_net_get_features() even
> > > > > > > > > if it is required. This complicates the live migration
> > > > > > > > > compatibility
> > > > > > > > > as the management layer may think the feature is enabled but
> > > > > > > > > in fact
> > > > > > > > > not.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let's add a strict feature check to make sure if there's a
> > > > > > > > > mismatch
> > > > > > > > > between the required feature and peer, fail the get_features()
> > > > > > > > > immediately instead of waiting until the migration to fail.
> > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > offload the migration compatibility completely to the
> > > > > > > > > management
> > > > > > > > > layer.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Jason Wang <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is not really useful - how do users know how to tweak their
> > > > > > > > command lines?
> > > > > > > > We discussed this many times.
> > > > > > > > To try and solve this you need a tool that will tell you how to
> > > > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > VM on X to make it migrateable to Y or Z.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > More importantly,
> > > > > > > > migration is a niche thing and breaking booting perfectly good
> > > > > > > > VMs
> > > > > > > > just for that seems wrong.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > IMHO Jason's proposal is useful in that it now provides a way to
> > > > > > > provide
> > > > > > > ABI stablility but allows auto-ON to exist.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we think migration is optional, we could add a migration
> > > > > > > blocker where
> > > > > > > strict check flag is set to OFF, as I mentioned in the email
> > > > > > > reply to Dan.
> > > > > > > As that implies the VM ABI is not guaranteed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All you have to do is avoid changing the kernel and ABI is stable.
> > > > > > Downstreams already do this.
> > > > >
> > > > > But the whole point of migration is allowing VMs to move between
> > > > > hosts..
> > > > > hence AFAIU kernel can change.
> > > > >
> > > > > Downstream will still have problem if some network features will be
> > > > > optionally supported in some of the RHEL-N branches, because machine
> > > > > types
> > > > > are defined the same in any RHEL-N, so IIUC it's also possible a VM
> > > > > booting
> > > > > on a latest RHEL-X.Y qemu/kernel hit issues migrating back to an older
> > > > > RHEL-X.(Y-1) qemu/kernel if RHEL-X.(Y-1) kernel doesn't have the
> > > > > network
> > > > > feature available..
> > > > >
> > > > > It's also not good IMHO to only fix downstream but having upstream
> > > > > face
> > > > > such problems, even if there's a downstream fix...
> > > > >
> > > > > This thread was revived only because Jinpu hit similar issues. IMHO
> > > > > we
> > > > > should still try to provide a generic solution upstream for everyone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Peter Xu
> > > >
> > > > failing to start a perfectly good qemu which used to work
> > > > because you changed kernels is better than failing to migrate how?
> > >
> > > It doesn't:
> > >
> > > 1) the strict feature check will be only enabled in new machine types
> > > 2) if kernel ABI is stable, qemu will keep working after upgrading
> > > kernel even with strict check otherwise it would be a bug of kernel
> > >
> > > So I don't see it breaking anything if we make it start to work at 11.0?
> >
> > Using QEMU from git suddenly requires upgrading the kernel or figuring
> > out obscure flags? Ugh.
>
> Only the setups are buggy that might meet this.
I do git pull on qemu and have an old kernel. My setup just
became buggy. No?
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > graceful downgrade with old kernels is the basics of good userspace
> > > > behaviour and has been for decades.
> > >
> > > Peter has given the example of how hard we can define gracefulness
> > > (e.g migrate from a kernel w/ USO to a kernel w/o USO) and fix.
> > >
> > > Maybe we can think of a usersapce fallback to emulation of USO or
> > > others, but I'm not sure if it's an overkill.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > sure, let's work on a solution, just erroring out is more about blaming
> > > > the user. what is the user supposed to do when qemu fails to start?
> > >
> > > It's the first step as it's much better than silently clearing the
> > > feature which may confuse both user and migration. We can use warnings
> > > instead of errors but I'm not sure how much it can help.
> >
> >
> > Well with this first step we have successfully blamed the user and
> > the second step won't ever be taken.
>
> Are you suggesting to fix the management? E.g patching libvirt to
> probe tap features?
host features generally.
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > first, formulate what exactly do you want to enable.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > for example, you have a set of boxes and you want a set of flags
> > > > to supply to guarantee qemu can migrate between them. is that it?
> > >
> > > Mostly, it should work as a CPU cluster.
> >
> > the reason it kinda works with CPU cluster is simply because
> > there is a final set of CPU models and you can not easily
> > switch your CPU to a different model.
>
> We can define a set of TAP features as well, but I'm not sure it's
> worthwhile to do this.
>
> >
> > > So it's the responsibility of
> > > the management layer, maybe we can develop some tool to report this or
> > > via qemu introspection ("query-tap" ?). Or if the management can do
> > > this now, we don't even need to bother (or it can help to uncover
> > > bugs). Anyhow, clearing a feature silently is not good and can cover
> > > bugs of various layers.
> > >
> > > Note that this issue is not specific to TAP, we may meet this for
> > > vDPA/VFIO live migration as well. Basically, it should be the
> > > responsibility of the management layer to deal with those migration
> > > compatibility policies instead of using hard coded policies inside
> > > Qemu. For qemu, it can simply error out when there's a mismatch
> > > between features that are supported and features that are asked to
> > > enable. We've suffered a lot in the past when trying to deal with this
> > > by Qemu.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> >
> > Yes but QEMU currently gives management no tools to figure out
> > what is important for it.
>
> Using Qemu might be problematic as usually it doesn't not have privilege.
>
> We can extend iproute, or a dedicated tool or ask libvirt to do this.
> If libvirt could do the probe by itself, could we start from that?
>
> Thanks
All I am saying is that I want to see how is management supposed to
know what to enable.
qemu already probes tap features. To me, it seems natural
for management to do the probing through qemu.
in fact your patch is a way to do that, is it not?
what it lacks though is a structured way to tell management how
to fix the problem.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > MST
> > > >
> >
