Hi Ethan,
thanks for the work with Revolt. I tried it during the developer meeting
in Firenze, but I did not persist in using it. Let me explain why and
please excuse me in advance, this is a pretty long mail!
First, before jumping to a tool, I would like that we discuss globally
the communication challenges that all those new tools bring for all
online communities - QGIS included.
I experienced the very same situation with mailing list and a spontaneus
Discord server ( at my paragliding club) and I learned a few things,
both positive and negative.
# Where are we now ?
- mailing lists are dying. Younger won't jump in. Being at ease suppose
a good email client and filter rules. And this is a pain. What is really
unique is that they are indexed by search engine and accessible via
public archives. We built a knowledge base each time we post a mail.
Osgeo also offers a central hub where one can't explore existing mailing
lists, and this was a really nice to me. Now that Nabble is dead, there
is no more forum-like web access. And let's not forget that some people
just don't want to use apps, and would like to stick to mail forever.
So we can't stay without decision here.
- Chats are fun, but messy, and they break our community in sub parts.
Telegram / IRC / Element -Matrix / Gitter / Signal / WhatsApp etc...
Furthermore, there are multiple channels that you can't be aware if
you're not invited into. This is a serious regression, because
transparency and public discussion is a key principle of Free software.
- Chats aren't efficient and generate too much traffic. I personnaly
just don't have enough bandwidth to follow 10% of the channels I should
follow. And I am pretty involved. Furthermore, each country seems to
have its preferences on which too to use. I ended up in having 6 apps on
my phone only for those channels. This is far from ideal. Let's not
forget that some people will never leave IRC too :) (and some have older
phones not supporting so many apps).
- Discord / Revolt are organized chats, with topics. They have nice
apps. They are still it is some kind of private place if this can't be
found via a search engine. Maybe Revolt can be indexed? At one point, I
think they also start to be messy and require so clear rules for
category / topics management, and archiving discussions. The Revolt
instance has too much categories IMO.
- we also have issues, Pull requests and potential GitHub discussions to
not forget here :)
- adding a new communication channel without stating officially which is
the main channel just breaks the single source of truth principle we had
with mailing lists. I have seen recently two feedback from community
users thinking that there was no debate on major topics, just because
the discussion on the mailing list topics stalled. But those discussions
in fact did occur, but spread across those new channels, and we didn't
have enough bandwidth to summarize the decision on the mailing list (and
we also forgot). This is the most annoying issue.
- Side note, I didn't have a good user experience with Revolt, the app
seems still a bit young. But I am pretty sure it will get more mature.
- Last but not least, after discussing this issue in the French OSGeo
local chapter and with open data groups, I discovered (yet) another
option, which is Discourse.
Discourse is a modern forum, that can act as a chat if you are inline,
or a mailing list, and let users tune their notifications levels pretty
nicely. Just have a look to the main page, stating the principles of
this tool [0]
There are tools to migrate mailman history archives to Discourse. Gnome
project just chose this path recently. [1] (thanks Marco for your
pointers here)
Soooo, we are all now facing the "too much choice" situation and user's
confusion.
# How to adress this situation ?
So I would like to propose the following approach, which is basically
the Gnome's project strategy.
- Discourse as one organized and persistent place, including the osgeo
history discussions. This would be the main communication channel. I
will contact OSGEO to see if the system administration committee want to
go this way for all the osgeo mailing lists.
- We choose on main chat tool for instant messaging. Discord or Revolt
could be the choice. I would vote for open source first. So this would
be Element-Matrix or Revolt. Revolt is a bit too much overlapping
Discourse feature to me. Element Matrix is already bridged to IRC and
exists.
- We let community driven channels be impulsed by groups (user groups,
thematic groups), but let's be clear that it tends to break the
community and should not be advertised as the official channels
I am sorry if this not goes the way you want, and we are here to debate
and find a consensus. Adding more channels without removing others is
confusing for all of us.
All the best
Régis
[0] https://www.discourse.org/
[1]
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/yer97p/from_the_register_the_gnome_project_is_closing/
On 28/10/2022 23:10, Ethan Snyder via QGIS-Developer wrote:
Greetings Devs!
For those who aren't aware, Tim Sutton and I created a new community
site with Revolt.
Revolt is a FOSS alternative to Discord that has many of the features
of Discord (for those who know about Discord), but without the not-so-friendly
TOS.
Some features are missing, but are planned as Revolt is in very active
development (such as the overhauled .
I gave a presentation on a QGIS Open Day session regarding the new
community site (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrvTnkGNzSw)
A big reason for creating this, was to help centralize and organize
the community. A key feature is being able to have multiple rooms (channels)
for various topics all under one single roof. Need a new room for some major
thing without clogging up the main dev channel (such as Qt 6 work)? Need a room
for discussing the new QGIS website aside from comments on Figma (already
suggested to Anita)? Creating separate rooms for these discussions is very easy
(takes a few seconds), and helps organize things, and increases community
involvement and feedback.
I have setup already, a couple of development rooms: core development,
plugin development, translations, documentation, and a general chat for
hackfests (Carlos, Amy, Raymond, and Tim already posted tons of photos from the
hackfest in Firenze).
Right now, the server isn't very active. But, I believe that with
enough key/core members using it, it will gain traction as we use it. There are
already numerous people signed up for this server.
I recommend checking it out, there are desktop apps, mobile apps, and
a Web App available (plus with being FOSS, custom apps are completely allowed,
unlike Discord).
Please feel free to provide feedback. A couple of people have already
made suggestions; and things have been rearranged, and changed since it's
initial setup and launch, so nothing is set in stone.
To create an account:https://.revolt.chat
To join the QGIS server:https://rvlt.gg/eRTmS1ZV
Let me know if you have any questions. We made this for the QGIS
community, as we believe this is a great platform for such a large and active
community and would like to see it used.
Thanks,
Ethan Snyder
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