Hi Billy, The issue is not the moral issue. There are no moral ambiguities. I don't see a huge difference from relating to someone in the homosexual lifestyle as I would relating to someone that is caught up in, and addicted to, let's say pornography (and I am not referring to a guy appreciating female beauty). Homosexuality is not the only mind altering activity available to mankind. What I meant was how do I as follower of Christ relate to people within a culture/society that can best be described as a "sexually broken". I think David Fitch's blog posts explains the issues really well.
http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/category/womenglbtq/ If I was to only read one post, maybe this one is the best: http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/why-pre-labeling-a-church-community%E2%80%99s-stance-on-sexual-relations-is-a-bad-idea-mission-and-glbtq-relations-2/ Instead of "What would the real Jesus do about homosexuals?" one might ask "How would Jesus express his love towards a sexually broken society that includes homosexuals? Does that make sense? What is the Radical Centrist approach? Curse them? You tell me. // Lennart On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 11:48 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Lennart : > What would the real Jesus do about homosexuals ? > > Matthew 11* :* 20 - 24. Pretty much the same as Paul in the second half > of Romans 1*.* > Sodom and Gomorrah were cursed by God, and it will be even worse for > Capernaum > for the same reasons. Jesus' comments, not some sort of "interpretation." > > Any thought that there is moral ambiguity in the text of the NT on the > issue of > homosexuality says one thing only --that the clamor of popular culture is > drowning out the message of the Bible. Or that the views of one's pals > or the media are more important than the views of Jesus, Paul, Peter > and still others. > > 20 books discuss the issue, 10 in each testament, 25 verses, possibly a few > more > where the language is a little difficult, and in all cases homosexuality is > unequivocally > condemned. There is no "meek and mild" about anything, not any more than > when > Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers he was meek and mild > about it. > > Jesus as forgiving of anything and everything is not the Jesus of the > Bible. > Jesus as universally forgiving ( rather than forgiving in many cases ) > is a doctrinal Jesus in which a conditional virtue, forgiveness when > it should be bestowed, is replaced by a False Absolute "virtue," > forgiveness in all cases, which is as bad, as faith, as what some > ultra-modernists do in tossing out as much of the Bible as they > feel like tossing out because they prefer Hollywood to the scriptures. > > Very simple, easy to understand, as clear as anything gets. As in , about > homosexuality, > addressed to any homosexual or advocate for homosexuals, " what part of > NO > don't you understand ? " Or just like the prohibition against murder, > NO in all cases. There is no appeal to the crime of murder, and > there is no justification for homosexuality. > > Modernists make valid cases about such subjects as evolution, women's role > in the Church, historical facts and the like, but about nearly all moral > issues > they are totally wrong. > > But I will admit one thing, if I had not done the research and now know > with empirical certainty that the science lines up virtually 1* :* 1 with > the Bible > on the issue of homosexuality, I don't know if I would feel as certain. > Still, the point is moot, I have done the research, I do feel completely > certain, > and anyone who takes some other view has my contempt. > > Billy > > ========================================================== > > > In a message dated 10/12/2010 6:43:35 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hi Billy, > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:38 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Lennart : >> The article you recommended brought up the subject of theology of culture. >> This theme has its own history, dating back to at least the 1950s. >> >> I found the following journal which may be of interest. A few selected >> summaries >> of article since its inception 5 years ago are provided to give you an >> idea of how >> it approaches issues, and what it regards as relevant. >> >> There is no summary for "My Jesus ain't your Jesus," which just might be >> the most >> relevant of all the articles, or, then again, maybe one more example of >> hipster Christianity. >> >> But the title does say a lot. >> >> Seems to me there are several possibilities : >> ( 1 ) the Jesus of the Gospels and only that Jesus >> ( 2 ) the Gnostic Jesus of the early Christian era, although very >> cognizant of the Gospels >> ( 3 ) the Valentinian Jesus, very Gospel centered, but allowing at >> least two other Gospels >> namely the Gospel of Truth , and Philip. This tradition is Pauline and >> regards Valentinus >> as a one-time amanuensis of Paul. >> ( 4 ) the Jesus of esoteric Christianity, various versions, New Age >> with its >> Aquarian Gospel, the Mormons with the BofM, etc >> ( 5 ) the Nestorian Jesus / Jesus as seen through Buddhist eyes or >> re-interpreted >> in the context of life in East Asia >> ( 6 ) the St. Thomas Jesus of India, Christ in the context of Hindu >> India >> ( 7 ) the Jesus of Thomas Jefferson, highly edited to become a >> Unitarian >> ( 8 ) Sunday School Jesus, simplified and focusing on lowest common >> denominator >> views of Christ --this is unfair to a good many Sunday School teachers, >> but >> you doubtless understand what is intended >> ( 9 ) devotional Jesus where prayer receives about 99% of attention, >> everything else 1 % >> ( 10 ) the scholar's Jesus, in which research receives the lion's share >> of attention >> ( 11 ) the artist's or writer's Jesus >> ( 12 ) the Jesus of popular culture, which can be everything from mushy >> poems to >> colorful psychedelic posters to Jesus Christ Superstar to jokes and novels >> and TV specials, >> to Hollywood movies, to blog comments............... >> ( 13 ) the Jewish Jesus, Christ as seen by different kinds of Jews >> ( 14 ) Christmas or Easter Jesus, Christ as understood by people who have >> no interest >> except twice a year >> ( 15 ) the Jesus of the Atheists --Christ as focus for criticisms of >> the Bible, religion, etc >> ( 16 ) the Advent Jesus, Christ envisioned by people who are focused on >> his return >> sometimes as threat, sometimes as promise, sometimes as both, sometimes as >> thoughts about mysteries we can only guess at >> ( 17 ) the married Jesus --a view held by various groups and >> individuals, including >> Dan Brown and the Mormons. Two variants, strict orthodoxy but married, or >> loose orthodoxy since Mary Magdalene is Very Important >> >> Some of these categories are not mutually exclusive. >> >> I have deliberate left out the Muslim view of Jesus since I regard it as >> nonsense >> which distorts the Gospels hopelessly --for very anti-Christian purposes. >> But by this criterion you could say that some of the other views of Jesus >> listed above might also have been excluded. Fair point --except that >> I was thinking traditional American context such that even an Atheist >> critique often takes place in dialogue with Christians , aka Mark Twain's >> paradigm of the "necessary" village Atheist as part of American culture. >> >> >> OK, which Jesus ? >> >> Is the only Jesus worth talking about, the Christ of the biblical Gospels >> ? >> My view * :* That is the "best" Jesus to talk about, the most >> authentic, most real >> to Christians, but if a theology of culture means anything then all the >> other versions >> of Jesus matter. >> >> How do they matter ??? THAT is the question, isn't it ? >> >> > The only thing that comes to mind here is that there was a guy, named > Jesus, that walked this earth about 2000 years ago. He's the real thing. > He's the one we've got to figure out. I think Jesus influences and shapes > the culture wherever he's read, talked about, doubted, cursed, or whatever. > Would it be wrong to say that culture matters because people matters? I > would venture to say that the "emergent vs. traditional" debate is a purely > western construct. I am not sure it's of any interest to the rest of the > body of believers around the world except to the degree that they have been > caught up in the strictly western idea of what church is supposed to be. > Fundamentalists are becoming less relevant by the day, it seems, despite the > noise they make. > > The articles below looks interesting. I'd like to learn more about what > Linda L. Belleville has to say. The "same sex challenge" is definitely THE > challenge. If we figure that one out it should be uphill from there on. What > would the REAL Jesus do? Interestingly enough I am heading down to a > non-conference (!) about Missional Communities at Northwestern in Chicago in > a few weeks. There seems to be some really good ideas and attitudes coming > out of Northwestern. I am impressed. Need to learn more though. Strictly a > listen and learn venture. > > Thanks - should keep me busy for a while! I appreciate it. I which I had > more time, I really do. Good stuff. > > // Lennart > > > > >> Billy >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================================= >> >> >> >> >> Institute for the *Theology of Culture* | Multnomah University >> *...*<http://www.multnomah.edu/programs/seminary/institute-for-the-theology-of-culture/> >> If it's Bible you want, then you want Multnomah! Multnomah University is a >> fully accredited Bible College and Biblical Seminary that offers one of the >> most *...* >> www.multnomah.edu/programs/.../institute-for-the-*theology-of-culture*/ - >> Cached<http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mj4YajIv6P0J:www.multnomah.edu/programs/seminary/institute-for-the-theology-of-culture/+%22theology+of+culture%22&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us> >> >> ------------------------------------------------ >> >> *Cultural Encounters Journal* >> >> *A Journal for the Theology of Culture* >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> *Theology 2.0: Blogging as Theological Discourse* By Benjamin Myers >> >> >> >> The Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben recently observed: “There are no >> authors today who could console themselves by thinking that their work will >> be read in a century (by *what kind* of human beings?)…” The emergence of >> new web technologies, coupled with the formation of new online communities, >> raises sharply this question of “what kind of human beings” might exist a >> century from now. This paper analyzes the contemporary Web 2.0 environment, >> and explores the way in which these web technologies shape and form our >> interior human and spiritual landscapes. Focusing especially on the role of >> blogging in contemporary theology, the paper argues that theological >> discourse is itself rapidly changing and adapting under the impact of new >> technologies and new forms of human interaction (just as in earlier periods >> theological discourse changed under the impact of new printing >> technologies). The paper will suggest some possible answers to the >> questions: what kind of self is formed by blogging? And what kind of >> theology? >> >> ---------------------------- >> >> *My Jesus Ain’t Your Jesus* By Daniel Fan >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *The Next Evangelicalism: Freeing the Church from Western Cultural >> Captivity* By Soong-Chan Rah >> >> With the demographic center of Christianity shifting from the continents >> of North America and Europe to the continents of Africa, Asia and Latin >> America, Dr. Soong-Chan Rah asserts that there is now a corresponding shift >> from a Euro-Centric American evangelicalism to a multiethnic American >> Christianity. While there has been a noticeable decline among the population >> of white evangelicals, the influx of Christian immigrants has helped to >> sustain and grow the American church in the ethnic minority and multiethnic >> communities. Despite these changes in the demographics of American >> Christianity, Rah argues that there is still a Western, white cultural >> captivity of the American evangelical church, which prevents progression >> towards the ‘next evangelicalism’. The power dynamic of American >> Christianity needs to be addressed in order move towards a more >> multicultural expression of the church. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Dining with the ‘Other’* By Domyo Sater and Matthew Farlow >> >> The essay illuminates the way in which the desire for community can and >> should outweigh our differences. Offering a narrative of how the desire to >> understand the “other” led people from both camps, Buddhist and Christian, >> to sit down over one table as one family for one dinnertime discussion. The >> discussion between the followers of Buddha and followers of Jesus sought to >> draw closer to one another while growing in a deeper understanding of what >> it means to be players upon the world’s stage. >> >> ---------------------------------- >> >> *“The Scopes Trial, Fundamentalism, and the Creation of an Anti-Culture >> Culture: Can Evangelical Christians Transcend Their History in the Culture >> Wars?* By Brad Harper<http://new-wineskins.org/journal/about/people/bharper/> >> >> The culture wars did not begin in 2004. In many respects, the warfare can >> be traced back to the hostilities between liberal and conservative >> Christianity culminating in the Scopes Trial in 1925, which pitted the >> traditional understanding of the Bible against Darwinism. Historian George >> Marsden has claimed that one can hardly overestimate the significance of the >> Scopes Trial for understanding the emerging Fundamentalist psyche. Harper >> seeks to show how the trial’s legacy continues to shape Fundamentalist and >> Evangelical sub-cultures, impacting their engagement of the broader culture >> to this day. The essay also explores ways in which both Left and Right might >> move beyond isolationist and polarizing practices and attitudes, working >> together to find common ground to pursue shared values and build “beloved >> community.” >> ------------------------ >> >> *Facts & Fictions About Homosexuality: Debunking the Socio-Biblical Myths >> * By Linda L. >> Belleville<http://new-wineskins.org/journal/about/people/lindalbelleville/> >> Transformed By Grace >> >> Of all the challenges that we face as evangelicals in today’s society, the >> same-sex challenge is surely one of the most daunting. In part, this is >> because the gay community has been meticulously implementing a 35 year-old >> agenda largely unknown both to the average academic and the person in the >> pew. Gay rights groups have their highly trained lobbyists, frequent gay >> awareness celebrations, widely circulating educational materials, and >> nationwide reconciling facilitators. Of all the myths that need debunking >> today, the one that poses the most urgent challenge for evangelicals is the >> myth that homosexuality is genetic and that change is impossible. What makes >> the task particularly difficult is the legitimizing presence of evangelical >> associations such as Evangelicals Concerned, Other Sheep and the >> Metropolitan Community Churches and prominent speakers such as Mel White, >> Ralph Blair, David Frenchak and Bill Wylie-Kellermann. The intent of this >> essay is provide a socio-political update, to respond to the biblical >> fictions that are most commonly put forward by the religious gay community >> and to propose effective academic and pastoral strategies and resources for >> tackling the same-sex challenge today. >> >> ------------------------ >> >> >> *Clash of Cultures or Clash of Theologies? A Critique of Some >> Contemporary Evangelical Responses to Islam* By Daniel >> Brown<http://new-wineskins.org/journal/about/people/danielbrown/> >> Smith College >> >> This article describes approaches to Islam by evangelical authors after >> 9/11, and argues that the polemical tendencies in the writings of >> evangelical authors including R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, and Don >> Richardson are missiologically imprudent, a distortion of history, and a >> betrayal of biblical theology. A responsible evangelical approach to Islam, >> by contrast, will take account of the presence of evil in all civilizations, >> the sovereignty of God over all cultures, and the doctrine of common grace. >> Evangelicals should disengage from the so-called “clash of civilizations” >> which pits Western civilization against Islamic civilization and should >> instead focus their efforts on theological engagement with Muslims. The >> article concludes by suggesting some directions that a theologically >> informed evangelical engagement with Islam might take. >> >> -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org
