Title: "The quality of education in this country has gone down steadily since the formation of the Department of Education
I'm sure that some of the decline might be due to political involvement. That quite possibly cuts both ways with conservative church goers not to enthralled over liberal positions and liberal church goers not thrilled over conservative positions. The more liberal Protestants are the Episcopal and Presbyterian, with the ELCA and United Methodists rounding that out. I also think that the media will be most interested the the disaffection for religion caused by conservative politics and not even cover people who have left the Episcopal church over gay priests. Or at least they won't cover it without portraying those who are leaving as the bad guys.

Nixon claimed to be a Quaker and I guess that's protestant. It's not Catholic. I'm on a Southern Baptist e-mail list and Carter simply isn't brought up. One of the reasons is that he has since moved to the more liberal Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, a break off group from the SBC. Carter has done from the left what Bush has done from the right. That's not a plug for either one (maybe a brick-bat for both).

There is a strain of hard-core Calvinism that is totally deterministic. The behavior in Bush could best be explained by that, but he does not claim Calvinism (as most Methodists don't). So I am really at a loss to explain that behavior. One should remember whatever Bush 43 is now, at one time he was Episcopalian (like mom and dad).

And you could have gone ALL YEAR without bringing up Crazy Uncle Pat. :-)

David

"The quality of education in this country has gone down steadily since the formation of the Department of Education."—Neal Boortz

 

On 5/2/2013 3:25 PM, [email protected] wrote:
 
Has Protestant decline been caused by the involvement of  Protestants
in politics ?  Any such conclusion, whatever opinion polls may say,
is ridiculous on the face of it. All kinds of Protestants in American
history were involved in politics. Was Protestantism in decline in
FDR's time, in Teddy Roosevelt's time, in the time of Ulysses Grant
or the time of John Quincy Adams ? Each of these presidents were
overtly religious, unlike lip-service and de facto unbelieving  "Protestants"
of more recent times :  JBJ, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton ,
and now Obama.
 
The believing recent Protestant presidents give us a clue
about what went wrong.
 
Carter and George W. Bush, as different as they are, nonetheless have a
fundamental commonality :  Reducing questions of faith to thought-free
bromides or to thought-free pieties, or to thought-free metaphors
used to make political points. Carter made use of every modernist
myth he could find, Bush 43 made use of every conservative Christian
platitude he could remember. In each case we had religious simpletons
"witnessing" for their faith, Carter reducing Protestantism to helping
the poor, Bush reducing that faith to belief in Jesus, nothing else
required. Both effectively discredited Protestantism.
 
As for opinion polls, and one that was specifically cited in Diana Bass'
otherwise carefully crafted article, as often as not such surveys are
totally meaningless. If you were a computer scientist you would
care less if a majority thinks that a data "cloud" exists in cyberspace ;
what counts is that it exists in hardware form and only in the form
of real world circuits, transformers, and electrical power. If you
were a medical researcher  you would care less if a majority believes
that AIDS can only be spread via sexual contact ;   you know better
since it can be transmitted via blood transfusions, eating food
prepared by infected food handlers, and even by such things
as sitting on a toilet if a previous user had lesions on his derriere.
 
There are times when public opinion polls are completely worthless..
 
The reason for the decline of Protestant Christianity ought to be
obvious :   Growing perception that it is irrelevant, especially
this perception among the young.
 
The simple fact is that there are fewer and fewer Protestant thinkers
among us. Those that come most clearly to mind, like a number of
Biblical archaeologists, operate in specialities that by-and-large
have little public impact. Also in this category are scholars of
ancient languages.  Would-be thinkers among Evangelicals
( broadly considered ) like Pat Robertson, for all their good
intentions, cannot be considered genuine intellects at all, indeed,
too often they are laughing stocks. Otherwise, to consider the
Religious Left, commitment to the Bible, the core text of
Christian faith, is languishing or close to non-existent.
Instead we find dubious or even absurd social causes
elevated to divine status  --such as homosexual "marriage"--
and the message of scriptures ignored or ridiculed.
 
As long as today's Protestants remain divided into their current
"liberal" and "conservative" factions don't expect Protestantism
to experience revival.  There may be exceptions to the rule,
as among Hispanic Charismatics  and Pentecostals, but
for the most part the tide of history has turned in a
different direction.  In so many words, Protestants
have brought it on themselves.
 
Which is not an anti-Protestant rant.  My desire is for a revival
of Protestant heritage in religion, and you could hardly expect
less from someone who regards Luther as a great hero and
someone to emulate as much as possible. But  Luther was
neither a Right Christian or a Left Christian. He did his
utmost to be both a  ruthlessly honest and critical Bible
scholar, and from him derives most of what became
modernist scholarship, but also was on fire with Biblical
faith, which of anyone ever alive, he took  the most
deadly seriously.
 
Unfortunately, I don't see this kind of Protestant leader anywhere
in America , or even on the horizon. But that is what it will take.
 
Billy
 
------------------------------------
 
 
 
 
Huff Po

Diana Butler Bass

RIP: The Death of Protestant Politics

Posted: 05/01/2013
 

On April 25, the Washington Post ran side-by-side obituaries of Howard Phillips and Robert Edgar in its print edition. The two men, one 72 and the other 69, died within three days of each other.

Those obituary notices, however, are the only time the two were on the same page. In life, they were opposites in faith and politics. Howard Phillips, a layman, helped establish the new Christian Right. Bob Edgar, a United Methodist minister, was a liberal seminary president and former head of the National Council of Churches.

Reading the twinned death notices was a like reviewing a history of twentieth century Protestantism. Over the last century, conflict rent American Protestantism in two: Protestant fundamentalism found mostly in evangelical and non-denominational churches; Protestant liberalism preached and practiced primarily in mainline churches. Phillips, a fundamentalist, and Edgar, a liberal, represented and embodied these two parties in American religion. And their lives - as well as their passing - points to both the successes and the erosion of what was once the America's majority religious tradition.

In the last years of the 20th century, both fundamentalist and liberal Protestantism underwent huge transformations. A key player in the ascendency of political fundamentalism, Howard Phillips helped move conservative theology to the center of the Republican Party, forging links between economic and social conservatives. According to Julie Ingersoll, religious studies professor at University of North Florida and expert on the Religious Right, "It's hard to overstate Phillips' influence in the transformation of the more secular mid-century conservatism of Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley into today's religiously-inflected conservatism." Although Phillips would later reject the Republicans to found the Constitution Party, his influence remains strong among various conservative political interest groups, Christian home-schooling movements, and Tea-Party evangelicals.

Robert "Bob" Edgar was not as historically lucky. By the time he came into national religious leadership, the mainline Protestant religious community was in decline. Although the institutions he inherited had once been significant players in both religion and politics, by the late 20th century they were plagued by membership loss and identity crises and burdened by unresponsive institutional bureaucracies. Amid the decline, however, Edgar spoke powerfully for Protestant social justice, served in Congress, saved an important seminary from closure, and injected new life into the National Council of Churches. His life and ministry demonstrated the best of his tradition, reminding Americans that liberal Protestantism, while numerically smaller than it once had been, still played a significant social role to defend the poor and marginalized

As leaders of their respective communities of conservative and liberal Protestants, Phillips and Edgar excelled. Whatever their theology and politics, however, and with whomever one happens to agree, they also were contributing - somewhat unwittingly - to the overall decline of American Protestantism.

In 1960, when Phillips and Edgar were young men, Protestants made up 66% of the population and were a strong religious majority in a nation of diverse faiths. By 2012, the percentage of Protestants in the United States slipped to 48%, making American Protestantism for the first time ever in the nation's history a minority faith (a large minority, to be sure, but still a minority). To be sure, the decline hit liberal mainline churches first. Since 1995, however, large declines have happened in both liberal and conservative Protestant churches. Although both fundamentalism and liberalism show some local strength, and the religious right demonstrates continued political influence, American Protestantism as a whole is becoming a shadow of its historic self.

So, where have all the Protestants gone? They are swelling the ranks of America's fastest growing religious group: the "nones," also called the "unaffiliateds." And why are they leaving church? According to a recent Pew survey, 67% of the "nones" report that they are angry that religious institutions are "too involved with politics." Evidently, a large number of Americans see religion as contributing to the nation's partisan divide instead of being part of the solution. For whatever meaningful work either Phillips or Edgar did, their legacies remain with us: a fractured and declining Protestant community, one with little patience for faith and partisanship, a theologically thinned understanding of politics, and increasing attention on institutional survival and personal piety rather than the common good.

I am a liberal, mainline Protestant and have always admired and largely agreed with Bob Edgar. And I have long criticized the Religious Right. But the odd coincidence of their passing gives pause, inviting reflection on the relationship between faith and politics in our society. What has this long century of Protestant conflict and division cost us a nation, whether one is a Protestant or not, in terms of our moral, ethical, and theological resources? Might there be a better way for Protestant politics in the future, a way that heals instead of wounds? Or, is this the final RIP to the old Protestant political culture? Whether one is a conservative or a liberal, a Protestant, Catholic, Jew or Muslim, Phillips' and Edgar's last gift may be to remind us that political power and devout faith are a potent and sometimes oft-putting blend. As the recent history of American Protestantism proves, when faith becomes the servant of partisan politics, even a great religious tradition can lose its soul.

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