Ernie:

"Do you think Jesus forgives you?  Or is that not part of your theology?"


Sure, it is part of my theology.  However, I am mystified why anyone would make

forgiveness central to all of  his theology.  Yes, it should be part of any 
Christian outlook;

this is not in dispute.   But why intense focus on the subject?


"For everything there is a season and a time and purpose under heaven"  as the 
song

renders Ecclesiastes.  Sometimes we should forgive others, sometimes we should

refrain from forgiveness.  But this is also to say that sometimes we should show

compassion and sometimes we should not do so,  sometimes we should go on a 
crusade

for truth or freedom or justice, but sometimes we should refrain from crusading.


There is another factor to take into account: Forgiveness sets one up

as judge and jury over the character and morality of someone else.

Granted, this may be called for.  There are times when injury

to a person is blatant and undeniable.  But there are times when

injury may be unintentional or even times when someone feels

that he or she has been injured by somebody else but, in fact,

what is going on is self-inflicted injury but blamed on

a someone else.


Most days in my life, say 95%, forgiveness is not an issue at all.

It simply does not come up, it isn't part of the picture.


Justice is another matter; it is "topical"  -at least it is to me-  in maybe

50% of the days of my life. And when someone is stealing or lying

or causing destruction or injury knowingly the last thing  I wish to do

is offer forgiveness; I would like justice even if I can't get justice.


And, also in my humble opinion, it would be self-injury to

forgive someone who is gypping me when I make a purchase

or lying about me and in the process sabotaging my reputation,

or lying to me about a friend, or misrepresenting me to others

and distorting my intentions, or you-name-it where injustice

calls for justice.


In the political realm forgiveness really isn't a factor at all, or only

is on very rare special occasions.  And a large part of what I do

is political in character.



Did I read the whole article?  Most of it but, candidly, I was very turned off

by what, to me, was morbid obsession with forgiveness as some sort

of guiding principle in all of life  -as if justice isn't that big of a deal,

or truthfulness, or wisdom, and so forth.


Yes, the writer makes distinctions between types of forgiveness

but to me these differentiations are almost beside the point  -although

it was refreshing to find someone who understands the point that

forgiveness without repentance is unbiblical.  That is, intense focus on 
forgiveness

makes no sense to me.  Christian faith, as I understand it, as it does make 
good sense

to me, requires balance between a number of virtues, NOT intense focus

on just one virtue.


In plain English, intense focus on forgiveness is reductionist and, de facto,

sidelines most of what Christian faith is all about.


There are or have been other examples, like the sylite monks of yore

who spent their years atop a pillar and spent all their time in prayer

and supplication to the Lord.  To me, while that formally is "Christian faith,"

it is a huge waste of time and talent.


Luther went though a period of self mortification in which he punished himself

day in and day out for each minor transgression he could identify

and admit to himself. Finally he realized that his efforts were all in vain.

Faith could set him free from his obsession, and when he grasped that fact

he became a new man  -willing and able to take on the world

and, in due course, change history.


Yes, to paraphrase Luther, he still was a miserable worm compared to Christ,

but he nonetheless was a man, he nonetheless had God-given intelligence

and a variety of talents, and it was his responsibility to go to work

on behalf of Christian faith and he could never do that if he spent

all his time punishing himself for his sins.  Besides, Jesus took on

his sins even though he   -Jesus-  understood that there is no such thing

as a human being who ceases to sin; it can't be done.


What can be done is to get to work to make this world more Christian in as many 
ways

as you have the capacity to do so.  Don't expect perfection from yourself,

just get busy and change the world despite all your limitations.

If you need to, forgive your own mistakes, in any case,

don't get hung up on forgiveness.


Something similar took place in Buddha's life when, after several years

of self denial and asceticism, he realized that such a program for himself

was self-defeating.  He still pursued the objective of enlightenment

but only as part of an overall process that became known as

the Noble Eightfold Path, balance of virtues, in other words.


I am concerned  -greatly-  with Christian virtues, and with their opposite

and avoiding these opposites, the deadly sins.    But  even when I concentrate

on one subject rather than another  -and we all must concentrate now and then-

nothing else has been overlooked or forgotten.


Question for you:

For myself there is one Christian leader whom I most want to "be like."

Setting aside the larger-than-life figures in the New Testament, it clearly is

Martin Luther. There is no question about it in my mind. I may fail

but if it all worked out somehow you could see my inspiration unmistakably

in the life of Luther.


Who, among all Christians of history outside of the Bible

would you most want "to be like" ?



Very curious to learn your answer.


Billy



________________________________
From: Centroids <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 10:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Billy Rojas
Subject: Re: [RC] As We Forgive Our Debtors vs Politics

Hi Billy,

> The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant," it seems to  me, cannot be authentic
> because of how problematic it would be to take this as absolute truth in all 
> cases.
> In some % of cases, the admonition would be suicidal or terribly ill-advised 
> generally.
> Or it might be self-destructive for its naive outlook, as if someone cannot 
> possibly lie
> while protesting that he is really  repenting when, instead, he is
> seeking to gain an unfair advantage through unjustified trust
> that we should not have granted him in the first place.

Two questions:

1.  Did you actually read all the way to the end of the article?

The reason I posted it is that he explicitly draws a line between the kind of 
forgiveness we show “repentant” and “unrepentant” sinners, which I thought 
addresses your concern. If not, I’d like to hear where it falls short.

2.  Do you think Jesus forgives you?  Or is that not part of your theology?

Ernie

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