Hi Billy, > Sure, it is part of my theology. However, I am mystified why anyone would > make forgiveness central to all of his theology. Yes, it should be part of > any Christian outlook; this is not in dispute. But why intense focus on the > subject? > I agree forgiveness is not central. For me, the central issue in Christianity is the cross.
However, the paradox of the cross is precisely where we confront all the tensions and contradictions of life and faith. Justice versus Mercy. Truth versus Grace. Self vs Society. God vs Man. You are correct that forgiveness is absurd, and a mystery. But that is precisely WHY I obsess over it. Not because it is always the right answer, but because it begs the right questions. > Most days in my life, say 95%, forgiveness is not an issue at all. It simply > does not come up, it isn't part of the picture. > > Justice is another matter; it is "topical" -at least it is to me- in maybe > 50% of the days of my life. > Yeah, I’ve noticed that. > And when someone is stealing or lying or causing destruction or injury > knowingly the last thing I wish to do is offer forgiveness; I would like > justice even if I can't get justice. > So, by Justice do you primarily mean the way other people treat you? > > > > Yes, to paraphrase Luther, he still was a miserable worm compared to Christ, > but he nonetheless was a man, he nonetheless had God-given intelligence and a > variety of talents, and it was his responsibility to go to work on behalf of > Christian faith and he could never do that if he spent all his time > punishing himself for his sins > > Besides, Jesus took on his sins even though he -Jesus- understood that > there is no such thing as a human being who ceases to sin; it can't be done. > Okay, so you do concede that -being- forgiven was a central part of Luther’s journey. I think we are on the same page. As a front-slidden Lutheran, I actually agree with you that it is possible to take forgiveness too far, and think everything is about grace. > What can be done is to get to work to make this world more Christian in as > many ways as you have the capacity to do so. Don't expect perfection from > yourself, just get busy and change the world despite all your limitations. > Hmm. I think I half agree. This is why I keep going back to the cross. Because sometimes it is precisely those limitations that keep me from being successful at changing the world. > If you need to, forgive your own mistakes, in any case, don't get hung up on > forgiveness. > I usually have the opposite problem. The thing that most often keeps me from obeying the Golden Rule is getting caught up in unforgiveness. Does that never happen to you? > I am concerned -greatly- with Christian virtues, and with their opposite > and avoiding these opposites, the deadly sins. But even when I > concentrate on one subject rather than another -and we all must concentrate > now and then-nothing else has been overlooked or forgotten. > Well said. I agree: the point is not forgiveness. The point is transformation, of both ourselves and others. Forgiveness is just a tool (though a critical one). > Question for you: > > For myself there is one Christian leader whom I most want to "be like." > > Setting aside the larger-than-life figures in the New Testament, it clearly > is Martin Luther. There is no question about it in my mind. I may fail but if > it all worked out somehow you could see my inspiration unmistakably in the > life of Luther. > Very cool. And slightly ironic, since Luther’s the one I tend to blame for over-emphasizing forgiveness and creating cheap grace (even though it was a very necessary corrective to hypocritical Catholic legalism). > > Who, among all Christians of history outside of the Bible would you most want > "to be like" ? > That’s easy. St. Augustine, The Godfather of Western Civilization. With a little St. Benedict thrown in. Even if most of my work is actually undoing what they did. I honor them best by improving upon their example, not by following it. E > > Very curious to learn your answer. > > > > Billy > > > > > > > From: Centroids <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2018 10:31 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Billy Rojas > Subject: Re: [RC] As We Forgive Our Debtors vs Politics > > Hi Billy, > > > The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant," it seems to me, cannot be > > authentic > > because of how problematic it would be to take this as absolute truth in > > all cases. > > In some % of cases, the admonition would be suicidal or terribly > > ill-advised generally. > > Or it might be self-destructive for its naive outlook, as if someone cannot > > possibly lie > > while protesting that he is really repenting when, instead, he is > > seeking to gain an unfair advantage through unjustified trust > > that we should not have granted him in the first place. > > Two questions: > > 1. Did you actually read all the way to the end of the article? > > The reason I posted it is that he explicitly draws a line between the kind of > forgiveness we show “repentant” and “unrepentant” sinners, which I thought > addresses your concern. If not, I’d like to hear where it falls short. > > 2. Do you think Jesus forgives you? Or is that not part of your theology? > > Ernie -- -- Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community <[email protected]> Google Group: http://groups.google.com/group/RadicalCentrism Radical Centrism website and blog: http://RadicalCentrism.org --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Centroids: The Center of the Radical Centrist Community" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
