Read this and do agree with it too concerning Rangers in the same
boat about Camo clothing. Thet have a few stinks too,
Camouflage/Military Uniforms and Scouting
Hi Scouters!
This is a LONG POSTING because the questions and the followups
deserved to be answered as completely as possible. I've also kept
Mike Craig's original question as well as the e-mail addresses to
others who contributed to the answering of this question while I have
them.
Mike Craig wrote and asked on rec.scouting.usa:
We have had three scouts families join our troop in the last 2 months
from troops based on military bases. All three fathers were/are
registered adults, one of the adults still wears his district
commissioner shirt. All have told our troop committee that wearing
military camouflage pants and jackets is acceptable within the BSA
policy. Our troop is not stationed on any base, and several other
adults are questioning this 'policy'.
Mike:
Your "District Commissioner" guy is lying.
Out and out, he's lying.
The Boy Scouts of America does NOT approve of ANY camo clothing for
wear by youth members nor adults at ANY TIME.
The immediate reference to this is found in the first pages of the
BSA's Insignia Guide where it states that "imitation of military
uniforms and clothing is not permitted under the BSA's Charter and
Bylaws and in accordance with federal law relating to the wear of
that clothing." (those aren't the exact words, but it's close enough
to the exact words; later, I'll find the exact wording and post
it...).
I AM a military officer, Mike, and I also served as a former District
Commissioner. I KNOW that some "army people" will want to wear "army
gear" to give the BSA program some sort of "specialness" they think
isn't there already in the program. What I tell them, besides that
it's illegal under FEDERAL LAW (and the Uniform Code of Military
Justice, which gets their attention REALLY QUICKLY!), is that this is
like a soldier showing up for work in a pair of Scout pants and a BDU
(Battle Dress Uniform, the "work uniform" of the Army) shirt.
There has been NO MOVE, no discussion, not even any kind of
consideration toward wearing ANY form of camoed gear by Scouts,
Explorers/Venturers, or Scouters.
Just to let the guy know, Mike: In 1996, two Scouters wearing camoed
pants and a Scouts shirt were REFUSED ENTRY into a Council Camporee
by the Scout Executive of that Council. The Scout Executive informed
them of the BSA's uniforming policy and told them that unless they
choose to be in compliance with that policy, they would not be
allowed entry into the Camporee. One adult complied; the other adult
re-asserted his personal right to wear whatever the hell he wanted to
wear. The Scout Executive simply said "fine", both Scouters went into
the camp facility.
An hour later, the Scout Executive, accompanied by the local County
sheriff, served the Scouter still wearing the camo gear with a
"letter of membership denial", and advised him that since he is no
longer a registered member of the BSA, that his presence on the
campground is no longer welcomed. He was given 15 minutes to pack out
his gear, and he and his son (because the man said "If I go, my son
goes too...") was escorted off the camp property by the law
enforcement people.
The message THAT Scout Executive, in central Alabama (the home to
hunters, trappers and outdoorsmen of all persuasions) gave was that
"there's no place in the BSA for militaristic uniforming."
So, Mike, you might want to share this little tidbit of information
with your "former District Commissioner" friend and let him know....
The same statement found in the Charter and Bylaws is found in the
BSA's Insignia Guide.
It does NOT matter, Mike, if the person used to be a Scouter in
Europe or Asia. The SAME policy applies for Scouters there as they do
for Scouters in the States. I have been a Scouter in Europe for many
years, and I can tell you that we in Scouting Europe are even MORE
hard-nosed about the wearing of camo than our peers in the States
are...because we're there and are aware of the possible "mixed
message" that wearing such things can produce among our "host
nations" and their Scouting associations.
Other then the Handbook, where can I find the documented Policy for
the BSA uniform? Is a copy of this document on the web? Do the BSA
Policy or Guidelines specifically address camouflage clothing? If so,
where can I find this information?
and Big Chris wrote:
Usually, I defer to your knowledge, but this is a bit out of left
field for you Mike.
Sorry you think so, Big Chris, but the fact of the matter is that the
BSA has established uniform policy and standards.
Camoed pants and shirts (whether or not they have the nametapes on
them or not) and whether they are purchased at a military clothing
goods store or at an "Army-Navy store" are NOT one of the standards
for ANYONE in the BSA's programs. It is not an appropriate uniform,
nor is it a personal option. If we are going to do Scouting, let's at
least look the part of Scouts and Scouters.
Jean pants, I can see...the earlier Scouts wore dungarees and shirts
until they could afford the pants and leggings. Other pants, again, I
can see until they can get the official pair. Jackets...again, I can
see wearing what Mom and Dad got you as an outdoor jacket to "play
rough" in and to keep you warm. But a Camoed jacket isn't an option
to wear with the Scout uniform. They don't mix.
CAMOED pants and shirts, I don't see at all...even until they can get
the official pair. They don't mix and presents a negative image of
Scouting and Scouts.
A couple other points:
You wrote in part:
I don't think many people will mistake a group for 14 year olds in
the woods for the US Marines.
Not necessarily the Marines, Chris, but as part of a paramilitary
group (which the BSA is trying hard to distance themselves from!).
Surely you don't want your son and his friends being associated with
the "Young Klan"....
No, we don't hunt, but there is nothing wrong with blending in with
our surroundings, in fact I prefer that over a troop running around
in hot pink.
Why? Why are we trying to 'blend into our surroundings', Chris?? Even
with our earlier uniform -- the green khaki uniforms didn't readily
blend in with the outdoor surroundings (it did a better job than the
current khaki-tan shirts do), but we were not concerned with
"blending in" back then, so why should we do it now??
Are we in Scouting "trying to hide what we're doing" in the woods??
No. We want people to see our program and what we're doing....so,
there's NO need to camouflage any aspect of our outdoor program!
...and finally....
I can choose to wear whichever I want, the GSS (Guide to Safe
Scouting) does not limit the colors or patterns one might wear.
No, it doesn't, Chris...but the Rules and Regulations (I previously
stated that this was in the Charter and Bylaws) of the BSA does limit
you.
Here's the official statement:
"BSA Rules and Regulations, Article X, Section 4, Clause 4.
Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation:
a). No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as
described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations
covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations
thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting
official or local Council or any local executive board or committee,
except the National Executive Board after consideration by the
Program Group Committee.
b) Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Air Force
uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of Act of
Congress, approved June 3, 1916."
And JW Walker wrote in part:
I think we now need the benefit of seeing the actual written BSA
guidelines concerning "civilian" camo....
Me too, JW. The BSA doesn't address "civilian camo" in anything
except written memorandum to Scout Executives concerning "camouflage
clothing worn by Scouts and Scouters" (the last copy of such a item I
have was dated November 1994 and was signed by the former Program
Group Director now Chief Scout Executive).
As part of the memorandum, it talks about the Insignia Guide being
updated to reflect the emphasis...but I have three copies of the
Insignia Guide here in my hotel room, and all three doesn't address
"civilian camo" like "hunting gear" even though Mr. Williams'
memorandum does address "hunting and military-style clothing and
equipment" in the memorandum.
He states that "hunting and military-style clothing, combined with or
worn instead of the official Boy Scout or Explorer uniform, are not
acceptable wear during any Boy Scouting or Exploring activity. Scout
Executives are to instruct unit leaders and volunteers that those
articles of clothing along with equipment like pistol belts,
suspenders and military field gear are not allowed to be worn with
official Boy Scouts of America clothing or in the place of BSA
uniforms and outdoor clothing." (I wish that someone will dig out
that copy and send it to the Chief and tell him to please post in in
the new edition of the Insignia Guide.....I think it's pretty clear
but it's not out there where everyone can read and go by it....)
I can only post what the Rules and Regulations state, and it doesn't
address "hunting camo" or "military gear", but DOES make a point of
talking about uniforming which is clearly "military", as the poster
asked about.
Does the BSA National policy on camo pants list them as "prohibited"
or are they "discouraged"?...
I posted the exact wording, JW...it can't be any clearer than that.
We in the BSA DO NOT WEAR MILITARY-STYLE CLOTHING as part of our
uniforms.
As to your account of a Council Executive "banning a Scouter for
life" and throwing his son out of a Camporee.. I would love to see
the complete story...
First, the facts are that the Scouter was given a "letter of denial
of membership". Not "banned for life". The letter of denial of
membership offers that Scouter an opportunity to appeal that decision
through the Region and if necessary, through the BSA's National
Executive Board. As I wrote, the Scouter was then escorted off the
property by the local law enforcement personnel acting at the behest
of the Council's Scout Executive.
Second, the man's son was NOT "thrown out of the camp"; he left with
Daddy when Daddy was being escorted off the property because Daddy
didn't want him there anymore.
Third, the rules (including the prohibition on the wearing/usage of
camouflaged clothing) was in the materials sent to every unit prior
to the Camporee...and those two Scouters I am sure were not the only
ones asked to change....most did once they understood what the "deal
was". This guy was determined to have his own way no matter what the
"rules are"...and like you, I am sure that the Council's Scout
Executive used an appropriate level of tact when explaining and
asking the two Scouters to please change their clothing before coming
into the camp. I am positive that this guy didn't immediately "fly
off the handle" and say "it's my way or the highway...."
Fourth, the same weekend as the Camporee, *another organization which
uses camouflaged materials as a uniform* was holding a similar type
event close by. The Council was aware of it, which is why the Scout
Executive was present at the Camporee.
I am sure that if you contact someone in the Central Alabama Council
whom was there when the Council was the Tennessee Valley Area Council
(I believe that was the name of the Huntsville, AL Council before
it's merger), they can probably give you lots more detail. It was a
big deal back then.....
Do I REALLY have to say this again?? I guess so....
A SCOUT EXECUTIVE (not your District Executive, but the Council's
Scout Executive or Council Executive) can remove ANY REGISTERED
SCOUTER from the BSA for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER ("I don't like you;
you're a troublemaker; you are not a "team player"; you do not follow
the Scout Oath and Law....") for ANY PERIOD OF TIME (two weeks, a
month, six months, forever...) AT ANY TIME.
He or she does NOT need a "hearing" to determine whether or not to
remove you; he or she does NOT have to contact National to do this
(although most do as a matter of course and in the processing of the
refund of your prorated registration fee).
He or she simply has to complete two pieces of paper, faxing one copy
to the BSA's Registration Service, and deliver the original to you in
person or via registered mail the letter and that's it.
Done. Finished. End of story. And if he or she feels that you will
not cooperate appropriately, he or she can be accompanied by the
Council's legal counsel and/or by law enforcement personnel.
This is all written in the BSA's "Maintaining Standards of
Membership" publication which every Scout Executive has and can use.
Someone posted me privately and asked me "Does this mean that unless
I show up wearing the COMPLETE SCOUT UNIFORM (pants, shirt, etc.), I
stand the chance of being thrown out of Scouts?"
NO.
The BSA's policy is simple: we do NOT wear clothing which is
associated with our military. It cannot be any simpler than that,
folks. We don't wear "camo pants or shirts". We don't wear "camoed
field jackets". We don't wear those military camo hats -- even if it
has a BSA emblem on it.
We have a uniform, and everyone should wear it. SHOULD is the
operative word. If you show up at a Scouting event wearing jeans with
your shirt, I feel that while some people will question your choice
of clothing, nobody will throw you out of the program.
But the BSA is VERY STRONG on its members wearing SCOUTING-LIKE
CLOTHING as opposed to MILITARY-LIKE CLOTHING.
WHY??
*Paramilitary organizations -- and more closely, their "young adult
organizations" tied to them -- wear camoed clothing. It doesn't take
a rocket scientist to understand that there stands to be a bit of
confusion, especially in locations in our country where those
organizations freely (as they should be) organize and participate in
local events and activities, between the BSA program and their "club"
or "group". The BSA stands in part for equality, and this is the
strongest reason why the BSA and some local Councils come down hard
on people wearing such clothing during BSA events and activities.
*It is against FEDERAL LAW. With all due respect to my peers over at
rec.scouting.issues arguing about why the BSA doesn't follow "ALL
federal laws", this is a no-brainer. This could get people placed IN
JAIL, not just fined or slapped on the wrist. The law clearly states
that only military people (active, reserve, guard, retirees) wear
military clothing.
A while back here, I posted a note in part based on what happened to
some Scouts whom were wearing military-like clothing. The military
police, looking for a deserter, saw the boy and his friends who bore
the same description as the deserter. They detained all three boys
and gave them the opportunity for their parents to come get them
after they determined (a few hours) that "they were not deserters".
Yes, that's a responsibility of our military police, working with
local law enforcement, to have -- to find deserters and return them
to military custody.
*We don't hunt in the BSA. While some Venturing units may use
handguns or rifles in their program, the BSA doesn't hunt. So, we
don't need to "blend in with the woods" to do our program. (note: The
Venturing program has an OPTION whereby Venturers working toward the
Ranger Award, can indeed hunt. However, while hunter training is a
part of the Venturing program, it is NOT a part of the Boy Scout,
Varsity Scout, or Cub Scouting programs.)
*It doesn't even MATCH. There's NOTHING in our khaki-tan uniform
shirts which matches the woodland or desert patterns of military
clothing. So why would you want to wear such clothing (I know, I
know...it keeps you warmer than the BSA's stuff does. Good come-back.
So find something which IS NOT CAMOED to wear instead if you feel
that way).
ONE MORE TIME, because I can just see my email box filling with
"comments":
The BSA (not Mike Walton) says "no military clothing". Our Sea
Scouting program uses clothing approved by the Coast Guard and Navy
and which is DISTINCTIVELY DIFFERENT from their uniforms. Their
insignia is located in DIFFERENT PLACES than how we wear ours, and
the color scheme is DIFFERENT. Our Venturing, Boy Scouting and Cub
Scouting programs have NO NEED for "military clothing". And in
Learning for Life/Exploring, those units associated with military
installations or their units, wear clothing which is NOT CLOSE to the
official military clothing worn by our Army, Air Force, Coast Guard,
Navy, or Marine Corps.
If you show up wearing jeans or chinos or Levi's (tm) pants, chances
are very little will be said about it...uniforms ARE expensive and
there ARE people whom cannot afford every bit of clothing the BSA
puts out. Financial realities say you wear what you can afford to
wear and most people will understand this and will do what they can
to help you out. I've seen it happen here a lot and it should
continue.
But let's not trade in what is LAWFULLY WRONG with what's
"comfortable and cheap"...again, with respect to the ongoing
conversation going on down the hall in rec.scouting.issues, two
wrongs don't make a right, and if there's a law on the books (the
BSA's or in THE BOOKS), the BSA and it's membership does the best it
can to uphold that law.
The other Scouter, by the way, allowed entry into the campground
area, changed into a pair of jeans; and Scout Executives DO have that
power to remove anyone from the program at any time for any reason
and all it takes is a phone call and a typewritten piece of paper to
do it and its done.
Mike Brown wrote and asked:
So, what are the grounds for appeal, if the CE can remove you for any
reason whatsoever?
The underlying reason for denial of membership, Mike, is because "the
person is not a suitable positive example of an adult using the Scout
Oath and Law in his or her life". It's a judgemental personal
character thing.
So, to appeal to the Region or to National, one must demonstrate
through written exhibits (one cannot appear before the appeal
committee nor can he or she have legal or other representation to
appear before the appeal committee) and testimonials that indeed you
are a person of sound, moral character and that to the best of their
knowledge, know that you try to abide by the Scouting ideals in your
life as a Scouter and around young people.
The appeal process is explained in a paragraph and a half in the
letter of denial.
Even though the BSA's own publications publish photos containing
Scouts and Scouters wearing incomplete uniforms, uniforms with badges
in wrong places and Scouters wearing military-style items - that does
NOT denote "a change in policy". (Changes in official policy come
down from National to our local Councils in written form.) "Anything
goes to make a good action photo", one of the BSA's photographers
commented to me way back when I asked about why they continue to take
"action photos" of Scouts wearing "whatever". "It gives the idea that
the uniform is secondary to the activity." It's hard to disagree with
that statement, gang, but it's still one of my personal pet peeves of
our Magazine and Editorial Divisions.
I've already posted the BSA's policy as it is written in their
publications. I've also provided separately a snippet from a BSA
professional memoradum on the same subject. Additionally, Stephen
Henning (a field professional posting from Pennsyvania) provided a
similiar take on this on rec.scouting.usa about this topic:
Stephen M. Henning wrote:
Point: not all camo is military. Much is for sporting such as that
for archers. More important points: no camo is appropriate for
Scouting:
1) bright orange clothing is more appropriate than camo for safety.
2) uniformity is appropriate so that a Scout group is recognizable as
a Scout group.
3) hunting is not an approved Scout activity.
4) military games are not approved Scout activities.
5) units that wear camo usually have much bigger problems than the
camo. I have never seen a good troop wear camo, and I have seen many
troops with serious problems wear camo. It is usually a symptom of a
"boys club" that wants to use the name "Scouting" but doesn't use
Scouting methods or Scouting principles and doesn't achieve Scouting
aims.
Finally, a Scouter wrote me privately and asked me (I'm leaving his
name and location out...it doesn't matter who he is or where he's
from...):
You wrote and asked me:
I am a Scoutmaster for a new Troop and we are trying to acquire
uniforms for out Scouts. We have access to a large quantity of
inexpensive unofficial shirts. The only real difference is BSA
nametape, unofficial buttons, and slightly more khaki than beige
color.
In other words, these are surplus military shirts. Why haven't you
asked your local Council to assist you in getting some "experienced"
Scout shirts instead of trying to "create" a shirt from "TW" khaki
shirts.
There's several problems with the way you want to do this:
First, the "Boy Scouts of America" strip isn't something you can
order from the Supply Division. They are only manufactured with the
stock Scout shirts. This means that you have to purchase or somehow
get some tan shirts, remove the strips from those shirts, and attach
them to your shirts. They are made also in a color combination which
doesn't come close to the khaki color used on the shirts.
Second, the pockets of the "TW" (tropical wear, or the khaki shirts
used by the military in the past) are not of the same size and
dimension of the BSA pockets. This is the most obvious "discovery"
that the shirt isn't a BSA shirt.
Third, while you can purchase the BSA buttons from the Supply
Division (they come in a sewing kit), the buttonholes on the shirt
are SMALLER than the Scout buttons by about a quarter-inch. That
doesn't mean anything between you and me, but can cause some
frustration for some kid trying to button the shirt and not realizing
that a lot more pressure would have to be exerted on the button to
get it through the smaller buttonhole.
I can understand the financial situations that many of your Scouts
may be under, but I also know from fact that if a kid wants a $5-10
Scout shirt, then they can save the cash to get one. While new shirts
cost between $12 and $19 (based on material), older shirts cost a lot
less. As a matter of fact, I've got sitting beside me in my office
here in the Pentagon a cotton and a polyblend small Scout shirt which
I purchased for the patches via eBay for $16. ($8 per shirt).
The other thing you need to do is to have a fund-raiser involving
your Scouts with the purpose of purchasing Scout shirts. This too is
where your local Council will come into play here...they can purchase
the shirts under a reduced-price plan straight from the Supply
Division (you can't do this on your own; it requires a signature from
a field professional because they reduce the price based on the
professional's "expense accounting code", which he or she has to
provide). The fund-raiser also establishes the fact that you and your
chartering organization are DEAD SERIOUS about organizing and
supporting Scouting and the new Troop.
When we "try to short-cut the program", it gives a definite message
to the youth that other aspects of the program can be likewised
"short-cutted" just because "we are who we are". If you ask your
Scouts about this, they will tell you privately (or publicly) that
"we want to do the same things that every other Scout has to do" and
that means to raise or have their own, official Scout shirt. NOTHING,
and I do mean NOTHING makes a child feel most inferior when *they
know* that the clothing they are wearing are "knockoffs" of the real
mccoys. They can deal with wearing "someone else' shirt" as long as
its the SAME shirt that EVERYONE ELSE in Scouts is wearing (they can
look in the mirror and see the same things that the books and the
other kids have) but they can't deal with the teasing and stares and
pointed fingers that they will get with "piecemeal uniforms."
Ask your Council if they have "experienced" uniforms that they can
loan or give you....most Councils have them (they get them from Sal
Army, GoodWill and other sources to include the BSA's Supply
Division). Raise the money to purchase a new or "experienced" uniform
shirt for each Scout and Scouter. Go online to one of the auction
houses (eBay and Yahoo frequently have the old "khaki tan" shirts for
auction starting at $1.00 each).
But please don't try to "make a Scouting uniform" from a "military
uniform". That may have worked back when Scouting was younger, when
people truly didn't care, and when there was less of a "divide"
between "rich" and "poor". It doesn't work today.
I truly feel that every Scout -- and I'm am example of that "every
Scout" statement -- can raise the money to purchase a Scout shirt.
That's the most important part of the Scout uniform, and it is the
part which all of the insignia of our program goes on and is
displayed from. It is the item which makes me just as equal as every
other Scout in every other Troop in every other Council. It it the
item which tells the world that I'm ready for service.
I and every Scout deserves to have "the real deal" and not a
"imitation shirt". And the same goes for camoed gear as well.
I hope this all helps out! Thanks to those who contributed in this
page!
_______
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