Re: [RR] Camo Uniforms, NOPE not for my group

[Jose F. Rodriguez]

Dear Jeff,     As a former Boy Scout I thank you for posting that e-mail, now what I am curious about is how do you relate this issue with the current controversy of the Royal Rangers uniforms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Ortner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: [RR] Camo Uniforms, NOPE not for my group > Read this and do agree with it too concerning Rangers in the same > boat about Camo clothing. Thet have a few stinks too, > > Camouflage/Military Uniforms and Scouting > > Hi Scouters! > This is a LONG POSTING because the questions and the followups > deserved to be answered as completely as possible. I've also kept > Mike Craig's original question as well as the e-mail addresses to > others who contributed to the answering of this question while I have > them. > > Mike Craig wrote and asked on rec.scouting.usa: > > We have had three scouts families join our troop in the last 2 months > from troops based on military bases. All three fathers were/are > registered adults, one of the adults still wears his district > commissioner shirt. All have told our troop committee that wearing > military camouflage pants and jackets is acceptable within the BSA > policy. Our troop is not stationed on any base, and several other > adults are questioning this 'policy'. > > Mike: > > Your "District Commissioner" guy is lying. > > Out and out, he's lying. > > The Boy Scouts of America does NOT approve of ANY camo clothing for > wear by youth members nor adults at ANY TIME. > > The immediate reference to this is found in the first pages of the > BSA's Insignia Guide where it states that "imitation of military > uniforms and clothing is not permitted under the BSA's Charter and > Bylaws and in accordance with federal law relating to the wear of > that clothing." (those aren't the exact words, but it's close enough > to the exact words; later, I'll find the exact wording and post > it...). > > I AM a military officer, Mike, and I also served as a former District > Commissioner. I KNOW that some "army people" will want to wear "army > gear" to give the BSA program some sort of "specialness" they think > isn't there already in the program. What I tell them, besides that > it's illegal under FEDERAL LAW (and the Uniform Code of Military > Justice, which gets their attention REALLY QUICKLY!), is that this is > like a soldier showing up for work in a pair of Scout pants and a BDU > (Battle Dress Uniform, the "work uniform" of the Army) shirt. > > There has been NO MOVE, no discussion, not even any kind of > consideration toward wearing ANY form of camoed gear by Scouts, > Explorers/Venturers, or Scouters. > > Just to let the guy know, Mike: In 1996, two Scouters wearing camoed > pants and a Scouts shirt were REFUSED ENTRY into a Council Camporee > by the Scout Executive of that Council. The Scout Executive informed > them of the BSA's uniforming policy and told them that unless they > choose to be in compliance with that policy, they would not be > allowed entry into the Camporee. One adult complied; the other adult > re-asserted his personal right to wear whatever the hell he wanted to > wear. The Scout Executive simply said "fine", both Scouters went into > the camp facility. > > An hour later, the Scout Executive, accompanied by the local County > sheriff, served the Scouter still wearing the camo gear with a > "letter of membership denial", and advised him that since he is no > longer a registered member of the BSA, that his presence on the > campground is no longer welcomed. He was given 15 minutes to pack out > his gear, and he and his son (because the man said "If I go, my son > goes too...") was escorted off the camp property by the law > enforcement people. > > The message THAT Scout Executive, in central Alabama (the home to > hunters, trappers and outdoorsmen of all persuasions) gave was that > "there's no place in the BSA for militaristic uniforming." > > So, Mike, you might want to share this little tidbit of information > with your "former District Commissioner" friend and let him know.... > > The same statement found in the Charter and Bylaws is found in the > BSA's Insignia Guide. > > It does NOT matter, Mike, if the person used to be a Scouter in > Europe or Asia. The SAME policy applies for Scouters there as they do > for Scouters in the States. I have been a Scouter in Europe for many > years, and I can tell you that we in Scouting Europe are even MORE > hard-nosed about the wearing of camo than our peers in the States > are...because we're there and are aware of the possible "mixed > message" that wearing such things can produce among our "host > nations" and their Scouting associations. > > Other then the Handbook, where can I find the documented Policy for > the BSA uniform? Is a copy of this document on the web? Do the BSA > Policy or Guidelines specifically address camouflage clothing? If so, > where can I find this information? > > and Big Chris wrote: > > Usually, I defer to your knowledge, but this is a bit out of left > field for you Mike. > > Sorry you think so, Big Chris, but the fact of the matter is that the > BSA has established uniform policy and standards. > > Camoed pants and shirts (whether or not they have the nametapes on > them or not) and whether they are purchased at a military clothing > goods store or at an "Army-Navy store" are NOT one of the standards > for ANYONE in the BSA's programs. It is not an appropriate uniform, > nor is it a personal option. If we are going to do Scouting, let's at > least look the part of Scouts and Scouters. > > Jean pants, I can see...the earlier Scouts wore dungarees and shirts > until they could afford the pants and leggings. Other pants, again, I > can see until they can get the official pair. Jackets...again, I can > see wearing what Mom and Dad got you as an outdoor jacket to "play > rough" in and to keep you warm. But a Camoed jacket isn't an option > to wear with the Scout uniform. They don't mix. > > CAMOED pants and shirts, I don't see at all...even until they can get > the official pair. They don't mix and presents a negative image of > Scouting and Scouts. > > A couple other points: > > You wrote in part: > > I don't think many people will mistake a group for 14 year olds in > the woods for the US Marines. > > Not necessarily the Marines, Chris, but as part of a paramilitary > group (which the BSA is trying hard to distance themselves from!). > Surely you don't want your son and his friends being associated with > the "Young Klan".... > > No, we don't hunt, but there is nothing wrong with blending in with > our surroundings, in fact I prefer that over a troop running around > in hot pink. > > Why? Why are we trying to 'blend into our surroundings', Chris?? Even > with our earlier uniform -- the green khaki uniforms didn't readily > blend in with the outdoor surroundings (it did a better job than the > current khaki-tan shirts do), but we were not concerned with > "blending in" back then, so why should we do it now?? > > Are we in Scouting "trying to hide what we're doing" in the woods?? > No. We want people to see our program and what we're doing....so, > there's NO need to camouflage any aspect of our outdoor program! > > ...and finally.... > > I can choose to wear whichever I want, the GSS (Guide to Safe > Scouting) does not limit the colors or patterns one might wear. > > No, it doesn't, Chris...but the Rules and Regulations (I previously > stated that this was in the Charter and Bylaws) of the BSA does limit > you. > > Here's the official statement: > > "BSA Rules and Regulations, Article X, Section 4, Clause 4. > Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation: > > a). No alteration of, or additions to, the official uniforms, as > described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations > covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations > thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting > official or local Council or any local executive board or committee, > except the National Executive Board after consideration by the > Program Group Committee. > > b) Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Air Force > uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of Act of > Congress, approved June 3, 1916." > > And JW Walker wrote in part: > > I think we now need the benefit of seeing the actual written BSA > guidelines concerning "civilian" camo.... > > Me too, JW. The BSA doesn't address "civilian camo" in anything > except written memorandum to Scout Executives concerning "camouflage > clothing worn by Scouts and Scouters" (the last copy of such a item I > have was dated November 1994 and was signed by the former Program > Group Director now Chief Scout Executive). > > As part of the memorandum, it talks about the Insignia Guide being > updated to reflect the emphasis...but I have three copies of the > Insignia Guide here in my hotel room, and all three doesn't address > "civilian camo" like "hunting gear" even though Mr. Williams' > memorandum does address "hunting and military-style clothing and > equipment" in the memorandum. > > He states that "hunting and military-style clothing, combined with or > worn instead of the official Boy Scout or Explorer uniform, are not > acceptable wear during any Boy Scouting or Exploring activity. Scout > Executives are to instruct unit leaders and volunteers that those > articles of clothing along with equipment like pistol belts, > suspenders and military field gear are not allowed to be worn with > official Boy Scouts of America clothing or in the place of BSA > uniforms and outdoor clothing." (I wish that someone will dig out > that copy and send it to the Chief and tell him to please post in in > the new edition of the Insignia Guide.....I think it's pretty clear > but it's not out there where everyone can read and go by it....) > > I can only post what the Rules and Regulations state, and it doesn't > address "hunting camo" or "military gear", but DOES make a point of > talking about uniforming which is clearly "military", as the poster > asked about. > > Does the BSA National policy on camo pants list them as "prohibited" > or are they "discouraged"?... > > I posted the exact wording, JW...it can't be any clearer than that. > We in the BSA DO NOT WEAR MILITARY-STYLE CLOTHING as part of our > uniforms. > > As to your account of a Council Executive "banning a Scouter for > life" and throwing his son out of a Camporee.. I would love to see > the complete story... > > First, the facts are that the Scouter was given a "letter of denial > of membership". Not "banned for life". The letter of denial of > membership offers that Scouter an opportunity to appeal that decision > through the Region and if necessary, through the BSA's National > Executive Board. As I wrote, the Scouter was then escorted off the > property by the local law enforcement personnel acting at the behest > of the Council's Scout Executive. > > Second, the man's son was NOT "thrown out of the camp"; he left with > Daddy when Daddy was being escorted off the property because Daddy > didn't want him there anymore. > > Third, the rules (including the prohibition on the wearing/usage of > camouflaged clothing) was in the materials sent to every unit prior > to the Camporee...and those two Scouters I am sure were not the only > ones asked to change....most did once they understood what the "deal > was". This guy was determined to have his own way no matter what the > "rules are"...and like you, I am sure that the Council's Scout > Executive used an appropriate level of tact when explaining and > asking the two Scouters to please change their clothing before coming > into the camp. I am positive that this guy didn't immediately "fly > off the handle" and say "it's my way or the highway...." > > Fourth, the same weekend as the Camporee, *another organization which > uses camouflaged materials as a uniform* was holding a similar type > event close by. The Council was aware of it, which is why the Scout > Executive was present at the Camporee. > > I am sure that if you contact someone in the Central Alabama Council > whom was there when the Council was the Tennessee Valley Area Council > (I believe that was the name of the Huntsville, AL Council before > it's merger), they can probably give you lots more detail. It was a > big deal back then..... > > Do I REALLY have to say this again?? I guess so.... > > A SCOUT EXECUTIVE (not your District Executive, but the Council's > Scout Executive or Council Executive) can remove ANY REGISTERED > SCOUTER from the BSA for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER ("I don't like you; > you're a troublemaker; you are not a "team player"; you do not follow > the Scout Oath and Law....") for ANY PERIOD OF TIME (two weeks, a > month, six months, forever...) AT ANY TIME. > > He or she does NOT need a "hearing" to determine whether or not to > remove you; he or she does NOT have to contact National to do this > (although most do as a matter of course and in the processing of the > refund of your prorated registration fee). > > He or she simply has to complete two pieces of paper, faxing one copy > to the BSA's Registration Service, and deliver the original to you in > person or via registered mail the letter and that's it. > > Done. Finished. End of story. And if he or she feels that you will > not cooperate appropriately, he or she can be accompanied by the > Council's legal counsel and/or by law enforcement personnel. > > This is all written in the BSA's "Maintaining Standards of > Membership" publication which every Scout Executive has and can use. > > Someone posted me privately and asked me "Does this mean that unless > I show up wearing the COMPLETE SCOUT UNIFORM (pants, shirt, etc.), I > stand the chance of being thrown out of Scouts?" > > NO. > > The BSA's policy is simple: we do NOT wear clothing which is > associated with our military. It cannot be any simpler than that, > folks. We don't wear "camo pants or shirts". We don't wear "camoed > field jackets". We don't wear those military camo hats -- even if it > has a BSA emblem on it. > > We have a uniform, and everyone should wear it. SHOULD is the > operative word. If you show up at a Scouting event wearing jeans with > your shirt, I feel that while some people will question your choice > of clothing, nobody will throw you out of the program. > > But the BSA is VERY STRONG on its members wearing SCOUTING-LIKE > CLOTHING as opposed to MILITARY-LIKE CLOTHING. > > WHY?? > > > *Paramilitary organizations -- and more closely, their "young adult > organizations" tied to them -- wear camoed clothing. It doesn't take > a rocket scientist to understand that there stands to be a bit of > confusion, especially in locations in our country where those > organizations freely (as they should be) organize and participate in > local events and activities, between the BSA program and their "club" > or "group". The BSA stands in part for equality, and this is the > strongest reason why the BSA and some local Councils come down hard > on people wearing such clothing during BSA events and activities. > > *It is against FEDERAL LAW. With all due respect to my peers over at > rec.scouting.issues arguing about why the BSA doesn't follow "ALL > federal laws", this is a no-brainer. This could get people placed IN > JAIL, not just fined or slapped on the wrist. The law clearly states > that only military people (active, reserve, guard, retirees) wear > military clothing. > A while back here, I posted a note in part based on what happened to > some Scouts whom were wearing military-like clothing. The military > police, looking for a deserter, saw the boy and his friends who bore > the same description as the deserter. They detained all three boys > and gave them the opportunity for their parents to come get them > after they determined (a few hours) that "they were not deserters". > Yes, that's a responsibility of our military police, working with > local law enforcement, to have -- to find deserters and return them > to military custody. > > > *We don't hunt in the BSA. While some Venturing units may use > handguns or rifles in their program, the BSA doesn't hunt. So, we > don't need to "blend in with the woods" to do our program. (note: The > Venturing program has an OPTION whereby Venturers working toward the > Ranger Award, can indeed hunt. However, while hunter training is a > part of the Venturing program, it is NOT a part of the Boy Scout, > Varsity Scout, or Cub Scouting programs.) > > *It doesn't even MATCH. There's NOTHING in our khaki-tan uniform > shirts which matches the woodland or desert patterns of military > clothing. So why would you want to wear such clothing (I know, I > know...it keeps you warmer than the BSA's stuff does. Good come-back. > So find something which IS NOT CAMOED to wear instead if you feel > that way). > > ONE MORE TIME, because I can just see my email box filling with > "comments": > The BSA (not Mike Walton) says "no military clothing". Our Sea > Scouting program uses clothing approved by the Coast Guard and Navy > and which is DISTINCTIVELY DIFFERENT from their uniforms. Their > insignia is located in DIFFERENT PLACES than how we wear ours, and > the color scheme is DIFFERENT. Our Venturing, Boy Scouting and Cub > Scouting programs have NO NEED for "military clothing". And in > Learning for Life/Exploring, those units associated with military > installations or their units, wear clothing which is NOT CLOSE to the > official military clothing worn by our Army, Air Force, Coast Guard, > Navy, or Marine Corps. > > If you show up wearing jeans or chinos or Levi's (tm) pants, chances > are very little will be said about it...uniforms ARE expensive and > there ARE people whom cannot afford every bit of clothing the BSA > puts out. Financial realities say you wear what you can afford to > wear and most people will understand this and will do what they can > to help you out. I've seen it happen here a lot and it should > continue. > > But let's not trade in what is LAWFULLY WRONG with what's > "comfortable and cheap"...again, with respect to the ongoing > conversation going on down the hall in rec.scouting.issues, two > wrongs don't make a right, and if there's a law on the books (the > BSA's or in THE BOOKS), the BSA and it's membership does the best it > can to uphold that law. > > The other Scouter, by the way, allowed entry into the campground > area, changed into a pair of jeans; and Scout Executives DO have that > power to remove anyone from the program at any time for any reason > and all it takes is a phone call and a typewritten piece of paper to > do it and its done. > > Mike Brown wrote and asked: > > So, what are the grounds for appeal, if the CE can remove you for any > reason whatsoever? > > The underlying reason for denial of membership, Mike, is because "the > person is not a suitable positive example of an adult using the Scout > Oath and Law in his or her life". It's a judgemental personal > character thing. > > So, to appeal to the Region or to National, one must demonstrate > through written exhibits (one cannot appear before the appeal > committee nor can he or she have legal or other representation to > appear before the appeal committee) and testimonials that indeed you > are a person of sound, moral character and that to the best of their > knowledge, know that you try to abide by the Scouting ideals in your > life as a Scouter and around young people. > > The appeal process is explained in a paragraph and a half in the > letter of denial. > > Even though the BSA's own publications publish photos containing > Scouts and Scouters wearing incomplete uniforms, uniforms with badges > in wrong places and Scouters wearing military-style items - that does > NOT denote "a change in policy". (Changes in official policy come > down from National to our local Councils in written form.) "Anything > goes to make a good action photo", one of the BSA's photographers > commented to me way back when I asked about why they continue to take > "action photos" of Scouts wearing "whatever". "It gives the idea that > the uniform is secondary to the activity." It's hard to disagree with > that statement, gang, but it's still one of my personal pet peeves of > our Magazine and Editorial Divisions. > > I've already posted the BSA's policy as it is written in their > publications. I've also provided separately a snippet from a BSA > professional memoradum on the same subject. Additionally, Stephen > Henning (a field professional posting from Pennsyvania) provided a > similiar take on this on rec.scouting.usa about this topic: > > Stephen M. Henning wrote: > > Point: not all camo is military. Much is for sporting such as that > for archers. More important points: no camo is appropriate for > Scouting: > > 1) bright orange clothing is more appropriate than camo for safety. > 2) uniformity is appropriate so that a Scout group is recognizable as > a Scout group. > 3) hunting is not an approved Scout activity. > 4) military games are not approved Scout activities. > 5) units that wear camo usually have much bigger problems than the > camo. I have never seen a good troop wear camo, and I have seen many > troops with serious problems wear camo. It is usually a symptom of a > "boys club" that wants to use the name "Scouting" but doesn't use > Scouting methods or Scouting principles and doesn't achieve Scouting > aims. > > > Finally, a Scouter wrote me privately and asked me (I'm leaving his > name and location out...it doesn't matter who he is or where he's > from...): > > You wrote and asked me: > > I am a Scoutmaster for a new Troop and we are trying to acquire > uniforms for out Scouts. We have access to a large quantity of > inexpensive unofficial shirts. The only real difference is BSA > nametape, unofficial buttons, and slightly more khaki than beige > color. > > In other words, these are surplus military shirts. Why haven't you > asked your local Council to assist you in getting some "experienced" > Scout shirts instead of trying to "create" a shirt from "TW" khaki > shirts. > > There's several problems with the way you want to do this: > > First, the "Boy Scouts of America" strip isn't something you can > order from the Supply Division. They are only manufactured with the > stock Scout shirts. This means that you have to purchase or somehow > get some tan shirts, remove the strips from those shirts, and attach > them to your shirts. They are made also in a color combination which > doesn't come close to the khaki color used on the shirts. > > Second, the pockets of the "TW" (tropical wear, or the khaki shirts > used by the military in the past) are not of the same size and > dimension of the BSA pockets. This is the most obvious "discovery" > that the shirt isn't a BSA shirt. > > Third, while you can purchase the BSA buttons from the Supply > Division (they come in a sewing kit), the buttonholes on the shirt > are SMALLER than the Scout buttons by about a quarter-inch. That > doesn't mean anything between you and me, but can cause some > frustration for some kid trying to button the shirt and not realizing > that a lot more pressure would have to be exerted on the button to > get it through the smaller buttonhole. > > I can understand the financial situations that many of your Scouts > may be under, but I also know from fact that if a kid wants a $5-10 > Scout shirt, then they can save the cash to get one. While new shirts > cost between $12 and $19 (based on material), older shirts cost a lot > less. As a matter of fact, I've got sitting beside me in my office > here in the Pentagon a cotton and a polyblend small Scout shirt which > I purchased for the patches via eBay for $16. ($8 per shirt). > > The other thing you need to do is to have a fund-raiser involving > your Scouts with the purpose of purchasing Scout shirts. This too is > where your local Council will come into play here...they can purchase > the shirts under a reduced-price plan straight from the Supply > Division (you can't do this on your own; it requires a signature from > a field professional because they reduce the price based on the > professional's "expense accounting code", which he or she has to > provide). The fund-raiser also establishes the fact that you and your > chartering organization are DEAD SERIOUS about organizing and > supporting Scouting and the new Troop. > > When we "try to short-cut the program", it gives a definite message > to the youth that other aspects of the program can be likewised > "short-cutted" just because "we are who we are". If you ask your > Scouts about this, they will tell you privately (or publicly) that > "we want to do the same things that every other Scout has to do" and > that means to raise or have their own, official Scout shirt. NOTHING, > and I do mean NOTHING makes a child feel most inferior when *they > know* that the clothing they are wearing are "knockoffs" of the real > mccoys. They can deal with wearing "someone else' shirt" as long as > its the SAME shirt that EVERYONE ELSE in Scouts is wearing (they can > look in the mirror and see the same things that the books and the > other kids have) but they can't deal with the teasing and stares and > pointed fingers that they will get with "piecemeal uniforms." > > Ask your Council if they have "experienced" uniforms that they can > loan or give you....most Councils have them (they get them from Sal > Army, GoodWill and other sources to include the BSA's Supply > Division). Raise the money to purchase a new or "experienced" uniform > shirt for each Scout and Scouter. Go online to one of the auction > houses (eBay and Yahoo frequently have the old "khaki tan" shirts for > auction starting at $1.00 each). > > But please don't try to "make a Scouting uniform" from a "military > uniform". That may have worked back when Scouting was younger, when > people truly didn't care, and when there was less of a "divide" > between "rich" and "poor". It doesn't work today. > > I truly feel that every Scout -- and I'm am example of that "every > Scout" statement -- can raise the money to purchase a Scout shirt. > That's the most important part of the Scout uniform, and it is the > part which all of the insignia of our program goes on and is > displayed from. It is the item which makes me just as equal as every > other Scout in every other Troop in every other Council. It it the > item which tells the world that I'm ready for service. > > I and every Scout deserves to have "the real deal" and not a > "imitation shirt". And the same goes for camoed gear as well. > > I hope this all helps out! Thanks to those who contributed in this > page! > > > > > _______ >  Let the Golden Rule be your daily rule. > >  Please pray for your list sponsor: http://eBible.org/mpj/ > >  To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe rangernet" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >  or visit http://rangernet.org/subscribe.htm >  http://rangernet.org