And if memory serves I might have seen the term in Bicycle Guide back in the 80's
Sent from my iPad On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Ryan Watson <[email protected]> wrote: > Apologies if someone already mentioned this, but... > Long before I ever heard the name Jan Heine or the term "planing," It was > Grant Petersen who first brought the phenomenon to my attention. > The 1992 Bridgestone catalog has an article on p. 34 explaining why they > preferred skinny tubing on their bikes when the rest of the world was going > OS. It's called "The Benefits of a Little Frame Flex" and compared it to > jumping higher on a sprung wooden floor as opposed to a hard concrete floor. > One quote: "A bike frame flexes under the pressure of pedaling, and, as it > recovers from the flex, releases some of that energy to help you go." > I've always wondered why Grant changed his mind and went with stiff OS tubing > on Rivendell bikes. > > Cheers, > Ryan in Albuquerque > > > > On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:28, ted <[email protected]> wrote: > >> "Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when >> he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term >> from boating." >> >> Interesting. It is precisely because of the terms use in boating that >> I find his application perplexing and a source of confusion. >> When a boat planes it is running more over the water than through it. >> It's also a phenomena that requires a minimum speed to realize, and >> there is a hump in resistance before reaching planing speeds where >> resistance is greater than it is after you get the boat up and >> planing. Seems like it just doesn't fit as a label for a desirable >> oscillating bottom bracket motion. >> >> On Aug 6, 10:41 pm, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he was >>> first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term from boating. >>> >>> One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, >>> since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are. My >>> "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there are >>> too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the stiffest >>> BB due to the ovalized seat tube. >>> >>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over >>>> whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff >>>> enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I >>>> think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right >>>> flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good >>>> "performance" bike. >>> >>>> Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about >>>> beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get >>>> why thats called planing. Does somebody here know? >>> >>>> On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: >>> >>>>>> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: >>> >>>>>>> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he >>>>>>> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these >>>>>>> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of >>>>>>> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant >>>>>>> group except perhaps BQ subscribers). >>> >>>>>> Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure. >>>>>> A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so sure: >>>>>> they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the >>>>>> day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. >>> >>>>> True enough. Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially >>>>> overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, >>>>> chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc. The power loss >>>>> from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no difference, even >>>>> with "noodly" frames. I like mine to be stiff enough to make derailleur >>>>> rub rare because it's annoying, but I've never actually been able to feel >>>>> any power loss from frame flex. Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who >>>>> won monuments and Classics, the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., >>>>> on one of the most notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979. >>>>> If the frame flex handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of >>>>> frightening... >>> >>>>> Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is actually >>>>> correct. It is a spring. There are several springs on a bike- the >>>>> frame, the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but also >>>>> radially), the saddle, etc. In the case of bars, frame and radial wheel >>>>> flex the distances involved are tenths to hundreds of an inch. Lateral >>>>> wheel flex, especially the rear wheel, can be relatively large (e.g., 1/8 >>>>> to 1/4 inch) under normal use. A lot of these can be quantified with >>>>> strain gauges, which might be an interesting study. Can "planing" be >>>>> objectively measured and compared to the subjective experience? >>> >>>>> Can all those things affect how a bike feels to ride? Maybe. I think >>>>> that most are like the princess and the pea, but some people may be more >>>>> sensitive to these sorts of inputs than me. We all have had the >>>>> experience of "I like this bike and I don't like that bike." There are a >>>>> lot of variables that go into that. Some of those might be exactly the >>>>> kinds of thing Jan writes about, some may not. >>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group >>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
