Happy to help Bill. When it comes to solar installations I am equally
inexperienced, but know enough to be dangerous....
Too bad about the high profile wind turbines in St. Louis. In my own
opinion, there is nothing worse than a turbine that is inappropriately
sited
and therefore doesn't work. Too much money has been spent by a well
intended client with disappointing results and folks will drive by and
say,
"Ah, wind electric. Look, that doesn't work." A black eye all around due
to an inappropriate application of the technology. The analogy I usually
use is, "If you put a solar system in your basement, would you expect it
to
work? Of course not. It needs to be in the sun." The same goes for wind
turbines. Too many people do not understand they need to be properly
sited
in a good wind resource, not a breeze. Siting them is a bit more
complicated than siting for PV.
Best regards,
Roger Dixon
Certified Wind Site Assessor
Skylands Renewable Energy, LLC
908.337.2057
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Loesch
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 10:41 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation
Hi Roger, It looks like you and I are the only early risers this morning.
You are 100% correct, I have very limited exposure to good wind
applications. There are at least couple of high profile installations here
in Saint Louis that are textbook examples of how not to do it. And to add
insult to injury, LEED awarded a platinum rating to one of these building
based (at least in part) on the points this very visible but almost
ineffective wind application provided.
My inappropriately applied experience regarding rotors stems from the
rotor
being powered from the hub rather than extracting power from the
airstream.
Two different situations that I will not knowingly confuse in the future.
Thanks for the time and effort in explaining the error of my ways.
This leads to another issue with the new division of the wrench list into
solar and wind divisions. Unless someone is properly versed in both those
technologies, and accordingly subscribes to both those lists, there might
not be the very interface we are having now and the opportunity to correct
some "common misconceptions". Of course you wind guys won't have to wade
through the foibles of solar electric much less solar thermal.
Best,
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094
----- Original Message -----
From: "roger dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <[email protected]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation
Hi Bill. I have to take issue with your comment, "Certainly don't want
to
lose that shedding blade into the solar array". Although you are in the
RE
business, I have to admit, that sounds like a NIMBY comment to me. I
surmise from your "Solar 1-St. Louis Solar" sign off that you are a solar
guy, not a wind guy.
Let me help you out here. What happens to a wind turbine rotor assembly
when it starts to ice up? It loses its airfoil. There is less flow
captured across the rotors due to the ice buildup and the rotors will
slow
down. As the ice continues to build up, the rotors continue to slow
down.
Eventually, and sooner than later, they will stop rotating. What is it
that
is going to shed and throw a rotor any distance? These are two different
concepts anyway. Rotors very rarely get thrown and I would submit the
ones
that end up disengaged do so because of a lack of proper maintenance over
time. Back to "ice shedding". Since we now understand that as ice
builds
up rotors will slow down to the point of stopping, what happens next?
Whenever it gets warm enough to melt the ice it will drop straight down
as
it disengages from the rotor. Due to gravity the heavier rotors will
swing
toward the bottom and the lightest rotor will swing toward the top.
Until
all the ice drops off those rotors the turbine it will not operate.
I'm not sure this is a wind turbine application but only because it
appears
from the pictures that once the ice arrives it may take awhile to melt.
Will it melt any faster off the rotors than the PV panels? Probably not,
so
I am not sure a wind turbine will help resolve the problem. However,
that
stems from the nature of the weather, not anticipated damage to the
surrounding area due to flying ice, arcing rotors, broken equipment, etc.
Dogs shed, not wind turbines :-)
Roger Dixon
Certified Wind Site Assessor
Skylands Renewable Energy, LLC
908.337.2057
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Loesch
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation
Hi Darryl, Mark, Ron, et al,
Those are some terrific and inspiring photos. If this is not an
application
for RE, we might all go home.
Special thanks to Mark for the good html sleuthing. Had I seen the photo
I
would have never suggested to mount fluid containers, Dole valves (and
more
stuff) on the top of the rack.
For the ice to accumulate as shown I am assuming there must be some
really
strong winds. More problems with adding wind machines than they solve?
Certainly don't want to loose that shedding blade into the solar array.
Here is another carry over from the transport category aircraft world -
add
a shaker to the mount / module. Actuated by whatever you deem appropriate
to
sense the ice accumulation. The shaker is most often a motor with a non
symmetric weight on its shaft. Not exactly high tech. Hopefully less
energy
intensive than the "clean" backflow heating.
Again, my apologies for opening my mouth before I knew the scope of your
situation. Absolutely great photos!
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Thayer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "RE-wrenches" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation
> Hi all
> This is for the far out ideas. Most cooling and icing occurs on
windshields and not on side windows, due to radiation to the night sky.
What if a set of tempered glass were above the modules, such that the sun
would pass underneath in the winter, and pass through in the summer. The
glass would serve as a radition sheild.
>
> Darryl
>
>
> --- On Thu, 8/14/08, Bill Loesch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: Bill Loesch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation
> > To: "RE-wrenches" <[email protected]>
> > Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 9:39 PM
> > Hi Ron,
> >
> > While you might put this into the same category as the
> > RainX; I would
> > consider using some type of glycol mix perhaps delivered by
> > a Dole style
> > (temperature sensing) valve. Glycol is what the transport
> > aircraft community
> > uses before launching an aircraft into current ice
> > conditions. The Dole
> > style valve only dispenses the gravity fed glycol when near
> > freezing
> > conditions exist.
> >
> > Bill Loesch
> > Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ron Young"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "RE-wrenches"
> > <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:12 PM
> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] ice accumulation
> >
> >
> > > Hi Wrenches,
> > >
> > > I know this is a nice cool subject for these
> > (hopefully) sun filled
> > > days. I am working on a telecom system that has some
> > issues with ice
> > > accumulation on the panels that essentially shut the
> > system down mid
> > > winter. Wondering if anyone has suggestions to remedy
> > the ice
> > > buildup. It's an extreme mountaintop environment
> > with very high winds
> > > at times and the ice cakes up to 2" - 3" on
> > surfaces. There are some
> > > pics here: www.solareagle/temp/ice.html
> > >
> > > Access to the site in winter is totally out of the
> > question so we are
> > > hoping to find some ideas that might prevent or reduce
> > the ice
> > > accumulation. When the ice shuts the panels down the
> > communications
> > > go down.
> > >
> > > Someone suggested a slippery spray like RainX might
> > help to prevent
> > > accumulation but I think it would quickly be washed
> > off/worn out and
> > > I don't know the uv issues that might reduce power
> > output.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ron
> > > earthRight Solar
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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> > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > 6:20 AM
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