I realize this is a technical listserv, but it is interesting to compare
the US practices with Europe's in this area. When one looks at the
genesis of Rapid Shutdown, and how already it is changing with the most
recent NECs, I see the solutions not helpful from an owner's,
installers, and minimally from a firefighter's perspective.
What would really help firefighters is if the System Directoryincluded
the current information AND system type: MicroInverter/AC Module, String
w/oRPS, String w/ RPS, and Bimodal. It would provide firefighters with
information on their level of exposure, far better than what exists
today. We are adding this information to our directories.
Chris
On 3/26/2017 3:05 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of it is up to the
AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the battery or both. Shunt
trip battery breakers do not cost much more than regular battery
breakers. You do need to control them though. That is what the
Birdhouse and MNbattery disconnect module was designed to do. Yes,
generators can also be shut down with the Birdhouse.
You may be able to use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box] soon
just to shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost is
very minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV input capacitor
discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one on each end? They are very
inexpensive. I do not mean to sound like a sales pitch here, but it
seems like we are the only people working on solutions that fit these
needs, so you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only
solution at present for battery based shut down. You have all said it
costs too much and is too complicated. We have listened.
Robin Gudgel
*MidNite solar*
On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote:
First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT breakers,
control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for wiring and
testing. I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost. Not a big deal
on large systems but for a smaller off grid project in the $10K
range, its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just going to go DIY
with junk off the internet, and the code is now under the bus.
We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV array
circuit, not the inverter and battery output. Which has at least
kept refrigerators and heating system on during a trip. However,
because charge controllers hold residual voltage in capacitors after
the array is disconnected, we have had to add RT breakers at the
charge controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10 sec rule.
My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must go
onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore power.
IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the name of fire
fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all. There are numerous
nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or
induced noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters
will probably only ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a
back board after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset
their new 690.12 compliant system.
R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760
On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects
are getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs
that 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank
with giant shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup
generators would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I
don't think that can of worms has been opened yet.
Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342 <tel:970.672.4342>
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with
690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements?
690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right
here in Colorado.
Thanks,
R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760 <tel:%28303%29%20505-8760>
On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:
Hi Howie,
So Jay found this from previous posts (below). So apparently
the -40 series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you
program the SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do the
switching of modes necessary for grid-tie backup. I plan on a
call to SMA tech support Monday morning to get to the bottom of
what exactly is lost without the RS485 comm. And to see if TLs
are still going to work as the new SIs tech sheet shows they
are not supported. why I have no idea but I intend to find out.
hope that helps.
Best,
Jeff
Begin forwarded message:
*From: *Drake <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC coupling*
*Date: *March 13, 2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT
*To: *RE-wrenches <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
*Reply-To: *RE-wrenches <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
I talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new Sunny Boy
inverters will provide taper charging with the Sunny Islands
even though no RS 485 communication is available. The Sunny
Boys need to be programmed in the off grid mode, and the Sunny
Islands will take care of the UL 1741 requirements.
The graph below shows the relation between frequency shift and
% power produced by the Sunny Boy inverters.
Emacs!
Drake Chamberlin
/Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328 <tel:%28740%29%20448-7328>
/http://athens-electric.com/
At 11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote:
I just checked with SMA and they do not have an RS485 card for
the -40 inverters. What this means is that you can set them up
to be permanently in off grid mode where the SB will follow
the frequency shift of the SI, ok for an off grid system. But
for grid tie with backup, the SB will not communicate with the
SI and will not change the SB to off grid mode. It will still
work like other generic AC coupled systems where the frequency
shift will cause the SB inverter to drop off line, but as far
as I know no throttling back will happen.
Brad
Howie Michaelson wrote:
I'm confused. Does this mean the -40 series are not compatible
with SI off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output due to
frequency shift? Or?
Howie
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004 <tel:%28802%29%20272-0004>
On Mar 25, 2017 7:59 PM, "Tump" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Jeff the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they "had a work
around" that was discussed on the list a few weeks ago. I
looked quickly but didn’t see it posted. You were going to
install a RS 485 card/ module that had the soft ware to
make it work. I found this out just as these “Newest
latest n greatest inverters" were just coming out, looked
at the manual, and much to my disappointment I had to send
it back and educate my salesperson to this. Lucky for me I
was able to get the TL series. Ill keep on looking, if you
don’t have any luck I do have a contact at SMA…. at least
he was there 2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump
On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Clearwater
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
All,
Can anyone confirm for me that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US /
3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US / 7.0-US / 7.7-US series is or
is not supported by the Sunny Island in off-grid AC
coupling mode? The technical paper on the subject here
http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf
<http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf>
does not list them but I'm hoping it's cause that paper
is dated Feb '16.
I sure hope they are because that paper shows they
discontinued support the the SUNNY BOY 3000TL-US /
3800TL-US / 4000TL-US / 5000TL-US / 6000TL-US / 7000TL-US
/ 7700TL-US series! Why!??
Hope you have good news for me!
Best,
Jeff
--
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
Renewable Energy Design & Installation
Ecovillage Design Consultant
Licensed Solar Contractor in CA - C-46
www.villagepowerdesign.com <http://www.villagepower.com/>
413-559-9763 <tel:%28413%29%20559-9763>
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