I have many times had to push back and not install the solar equipment
in the plumbing and mechanical room, even though that was the original
plan. Usually the plumber and HVAC folks are all very happy to not have
me in there too. Those rooms always get over crowded, and someone ends
up in somebody else's space. I just say NO, and find a better place. A
side wall in the garage is usually nice.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 3/21/2025 6:03 AM, Lou Russo via RE-wrenches wrote:
Aloha All,
I did manage to work it out with the engineer. After speaking with my
AHJ, consulting RE-wrenches, speaking with other contractors and going
through the code book I asked the engineer to add "install per 210.8"
to his text reading "Maintain 6' clear of water sources". The
supervising inspector and our area inspector, both agree 210.8 is not
applicable in this situation. The engineer gets what he wants and
since 210.8 is not applicable in this situation the language on the
plans is a mute point. We will also be squeezing
the equipment together a bit to get as close to 6ft as possible, throw
in a 3R gutter and everyone is happy. Including the homeowner who was
not budging on the location of the plumbing and electrical equipment.
I will approach the homeowner about a shroud of some kind over the
pump once the dust settles.
Yes, I could have gone with another engineer (we use several) but the
majority of the work was done and I did not want to further ruffle any
feathers. I have to think at some point I will get wind of the fact
that the engineer got burned by a similar situation.
Also, as William said his case "was not watertight" and I think he was
standing his ground so firmly that even if he realized he was
incorrect he could not make the u-turn.
Re-Learned my lesson here, never get too far down the design path
using the clients ideas. Sometimes I am just to flexible with our
clients and their ideas.
Thank you for all your input, as always it is much appreciated.
Aloha,
Lou Russo
Owner
[email protected]
Office - 808 345 6762
Spree Solar Systems LLC
CT-34322
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 4:10 PM david quattro via RE-wrenches
<[email protected]> wrote:
Is there a different engineer you can hire to stamp this job?
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:11 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches
<[email protected]> wrote:
Jay:
3R is for protection from falling water, like rain or dripping
water. This is not protection against spraying water. NEMA 4
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_enclosure_types> is for
protection from spraying water.
More random thoughts about the discussion that may or may not
be relevant:
·The original post indicated there are practical reasons not
to proceed with the project. Coupled with the engineers
reticence it seems another option or some mitigation is called
for.
·To be a good engineer one must be a good communicator. It
was said the engineer closed off discussion. It may be he
presented his best case as to why not and now wants to move on.
·If the sole objection the engineer had was based on code
compliance, it sounds like the engineer may not have a
watertight case (pun intended).
·Design work is all about decision making. I ask myself:
1.Is it safe?
2.Is it legal?
Ideally both answers are Yes.
If 1 is a No then it is time for a redesign.
If 1 is Yes and 2 is No and there is no easy alternative to
the design I try to get a waiver. I might talk with the
building department or Fire Marshall and make my case.
·Maybe it’s time to think inside the box: Could a removable
spray hood be fitted over the pump?
William
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
CA Lic. 773985
*From:*Jay [mailto:[email protected]]
*Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:22 AM
*To:* [email protected]; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8
If the equipment is 3R outdoor rated then it should be fine.
Otherwise I do like the partition idea.
A story I recently heard from a buddy was almost exactly the
same situation and an earthquake broke the line after the
pressure pump that sprayed water directly into the 2 Outback
vfx inverters. Killing rhem both.
Jay
On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:53 AM, William Miller via RE-wrenches
<[email protected]> wrote:
Friends:
If there is a practical reason why something should not be
done then the code is irrelevant.
I do not like installing electrical equipment near
plumbing so I get it. Maybe a partition or wing wall
could be implemented to protect from spray if there is a leak?
William
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
CA Lic. 773985
*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:[email protected]] *On
Behalf Of *Lou Russo via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:39 AM
*To:* Jason Szumlanski
*Cc:* Lou Russo; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 210.8
Jason,
That is my understanding as well. But he feels strongly
enough that he will pull out from the project if I don't
comply and he does not want to discuss it further. It is
his license so he can do what he wants to do.
I have been working with him for 15 years and he is
usually reasonably, so it makes me wonder why he is
standing his ground.
He does not even want to have a general discussion about
210.8.
Very odd.
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 11:07 AM Jason Szumlanski
<[email protected]> wrote:
210.8 covers GFCI protection for outlets and
receptacles. Hard-wired branch circuits and feeders of
a PV and ESS system are not considered outlets or
receptacles.
If I am not mistaken, each subsection specifically
mentions outlets and/or receptacles. Even the section
about mini-splits is talking about cord and plug
connected units, not hard-wired appliances.
The entirety of 210 is for branch circuits only, so
feeders would not fall under this section.
Hopefully that helps!
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025 at 10:10 AM Lou Russo via
RE-wrenches <[email protected]> wrote:
Aloha All,
My engineer is pushing back on our design,
which calls for a battery and load center to be
installed within 6ft of the water pump and filter,
the inverter is 7ft away. He is citing NEC 2020
210.8 and the need for GFCI protection.
Now besides the practical reason for not doing
this, I can not find a code reference preventing
our proposed location for the battery and load
center.
This is for an off-grid new construction home with
the PV equipment in the garage, using a Sol-Ark
15k and Discover Rack Mount batteries.
Any input?
Aloha,
Lou Russo
Owner
[email protected]
Office - 808 345 6762
Spree Solar Systems LLC
CT-34322
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