The more I think about it, it looks like we probably won't be able to get
away completely from PPC architecture, because Sony's PS3 is PPC (and it's
an extremely high-performing and modern processor) so we may have to
continue doing PPC builds even in the long-term future (just to support the
PS3 system architecture). So it may make sense to just continue doing Mac
PPC builds as well.
I may as well continue to support Mac PPC builds as well (unofficially),
since I won't have every single legacy PPC hardware platform to conduct
testing on, the Mac PPC architecture will simply be "unofficial" and I'll
try to improve the Naali PPC builds based on feedback from the Mac PPC
community.
I do have a wide range of hardware platforms (PS3, XBOX 360, and Wii) that
we can use for testing builds, and in the future I can do nightly viewer
builds and conduct build testing on the PS3 platform (which is PPC based) as
well, and also do XBOX 360 and Wii builds as well.
*> But yes, also good to tag certain well working releases quite*
*> frequently like OpenSim does, 'cause the trunk head is the dev place
> which is expected to be broken at times etc.*
I completely agree. I believe at least once every 3 months (quarterly) we
need to tag a stable release. I understand trunk head will often be a mess
(dev sandbox) but we still need to work on getting a stable build released
at least quarterly (as the project continues to evolve quite rapidly).
We can discuss tags in the future, but we may want to coincide our tag dates
based on OpenSim's tag dates. That way we're releasing a Naali Viewer
release, and a RealXtend Server release around the same time (just shortly
after an OpenSim tag release).
This way we can eventually catch up to OpenSim, and our releases can
coincide with their release dates. That way RealXtend 0.8 can eventually
get released about 2-3 weeks after OpenSim's 0.8 release, and be based on
the latest OpenSim 0.8 + ModRex + latest Taiga. Then we can release a
stable Naali viewer release (that will support any of the additional
features of the latest OpenSim/ModRex/Taiga), and possibly even include the
latest LL fixes as well so we always maintain cross-platform compatibility
with SL, OpenSim, OpenSim + ModRex, and RealXtend (OpenSim + Modrex +
Taiga).
So maybe we can release a stable Naali 0.2 (Alpha) at the same time that
OpenSim 0.8 gets released (that will coincide with a RealXtend 0.8).
Then maybe just stick with small incremental releases in between Server
builds. So we can have a Naali 0.1.2, or 0.1.5, or 0.1.6 in between Server
Build releases. This way we can get stable Viewer fixes pushed more
rapidly, as Naali constantly evolves.
Prior to a release (incremental or tagged Alpha stable) I can at least test
a stable tag candidate on each of the various platforms, and once we can
confirm compatibility, then we can release an incremental release maybe once
a month for the viewer.
Then we can just have the RealXtend server continue with tagged releases
based on OpenSim's tag schedule. So as OpenSim core-dev's tag a stable,
then we'll just work on using that Tagged stable with a current Taiga
stable, and then release a RealXtend version with a coinciding number (0.8,
0.9, etc.).
This way users will know that a RealXtend 0.8 is based on OpenSim 0.8 plus
the latest ModRex + Taiga Server fixes/updates.
Eventually as Naali evolves (quite rapidly I hope), we can eventually get
Naali caught up with RealXtend & OpenSim (as Naali matures), and in the
future (possibly next year?) we can have stable releases all at the same
time (an OpenSim 0.9, RealXtend 0.9, and Naali 0.9 that can all be scheduled
for release at the same time, so the viewer, server, and OpenSim all have
coinciding release numbers).
This will at least help users understand that if they are downloading the
latest OpenSim 0.9, or RealXtend 0.9, that they will want to make sure that
users are using the latest Naali 0.9 Viewer (to take full advantage of all
the additional server features, that are implemented/supported in the latest
viewer release).
I know Naali 0.9 is a long way off (possibly a 8 months or a year?) but
hopefully Naali will continue to evolve quite rapidly, and we can hope to
have a Naali 1.0 Viewer released at the same time as OpenSim 1.0, and
RealXtend 1.0.
This certainly would make future releases easier, and also make
documentation updates much easier (since documentation would only need to be
updated ONCE every incremental tag release).
By coinciding the release numbers (starting with 0.8 for Server, and
hopefully we can get a stable Naali Viewer 0.9 ready by the time OpenSim 0.9
is tagged for release) would certainly make things MUCH easier on the
documenters, and support community when it comes to documenting, writing
tutorials, and supporting users.
I'm guessing based on OpenSim current tag schedule (with 0.7 being released
shortly) that 0.8 might be released around August-December (based on OpenSim
current timeline/schedule) although we'd probably need to talk to Adam or
one of the core dev's just to see what their plans on for the next OS tagged
release.
I'd like to possibly work on incremental builds as well (so when OpenSim
releases a 0.7.1, or 0.7.2, or 0.7.3 build) based on their current
incremental releases, then at least I can do a incremental build for
RealXtend, and work on releasing a corresponding incremental number (for
server releases) that will include all the latest OpenSim bug fixes.
That way we can have a working stable tag release (RC) on 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, 0.9
builds, and have incremental releases (that may or may not be completely
stable but will include the latest bug fixes) on incremental releases such
as 0.7.1, 0.7.2, 0.7.3, etc.
This way RealXtend can keep up with the latest OpenSim releases. (We might
have a 2-3 week lag time between OpenSim's release and the RealXtend release
to allow for any testing or RealXtend bug fixes, but at least we can have
corresponding releases that are available more frequently).
I'd be willing to help/handle the builds, and releases. So if the dev's
decide they are ready for a tag (or maybe I'll bother the developers every 3
months to remind them that we need a quarterly stable tag) so once a quarter
we can at least get an incremental release out.
I know the current 6 months release schedule (just to get updated OpenSim
fixes) into RealXtend is really hurting the community. It's tough telling
everyone to just "be patient" and "wait".
It seems that development has matured quite rapidly, and hopefully with the
3 additional Russian Developers, we can get Grid mode working, multi-region
support working, and a dynamic module written for the User Server, so we can
have everything working in RealXtend by the time OpenSim 0.8 is tagged and
released.
I'm not quite sure what the current schedule is for RealXtend 0.7 (or
whether Grid mode, multi-region behind NAT, and Mega Region support, etc.)
will be fully working in the upcoming RealXtend 0.6 release?
Maybe we can aim for a RealXtend 0.6.5 or 0.7 tag release in a month or two,
that will hopefully be fully tested and working (with Grid-mode, Mega Region
support, etc.) with the help of the 3 additional Russian developers.
That way we can maybe release a RealXtend 0.8 tag release at the same time
that OpenSim releases their OpenSim 0.8 tag release (so we'll have an
updated RealXtend 0.8 based on OpenSim 0.8 + latest Modrex + latest Taiga
stable).
Mark
On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Mark Malewski <[email protected]>wrote:
> *> We have both Linux and Windows build bots setup, they compile Naali*
> *> after each commit. Perhaps you can host one for Mac? *
> *
> *
> Sure, I'd be more than happy to host a build bot for Mac. I might need a
> bit of help/guidance getting a build bot setup (I've never done one before),
> but I'd be more than happy to at least build/test the Mac Naali builds (as
> well as Windows 32-bit and 64-bit builds). I'd be more than happy to mirror
> the current build bots (for Mac, Windows and Linux as well) just to help
> save your costs on bandwidth, and offer a high-speed mirror for downloads.
> *
> *
> *> I think those builds should simply be available to download so anyone*
> *> can just grab a prebuilt current dev version at any time.*
>
> I completely agree. Let's wait till around March 1st for Mac builds. I'll
> be out of country (for business) and will be returning on March 1st, and
> I'll work on getting Mac builds done.
>
> Hopefully we'll have a stable RealXtend 0.6 binary release by then, and I
> can begin working on doing a full new installation of RealXtend 0.6
> (step-by-step) from scratch, so I can go through and test all the WIKI
> documentation (both on OpenSim and RealXtend), and work on updating all of
> the WIKI documentation (and writing tutorials) for ReX 0.6 as I go.
>
> I'm sure the WIKI documentation may need quite a bit of updating after all
> the recent changes between 0.5 and 0.6, especially with ROBUST, Taiga
> changes, Naali 0.1 Viewer and everything else that has been
> added/updated/fixed.
>
> Another issue is will we be providing 3 different Naali Viewer Mac builds?
> Most viewers (like Emerald) provide 3 different binaries optimized for Mac.
> So I was really leaning towards doing 3 nightly Mac builds (just like
> Emerald Viewer is doing).
>
> Older Mac machines (OS X 10.4 Tiger and earlier) may have old legacy PPC
> processors (Motorolla PowerPC) and may require a separate build.
>
> All new machines have standard Intel processors (Core Duo, Quad-core, and
> Quad-Core XEON's).
>
> I believe we should probably do three different Mac builds:
>
> 1) Intel Only Build (for Leopard 10.5 and 10.6 Snow Leopard).
> 2) Universal Build (for both Intel & PPC processors) for Leopard 10.5
> 3) PPC Build (for Tiger 10.4 and Leopard 10.5) for PPC processors only
>
> The reasons for this are as follows:
>
> 1) We can optimize the builds for the specific hardware platforms (Intel or
> PPC) and particular OS's (10.4 Tiger, 10.5 Leopard, or 10.6 Snow Leopard) so
> we can keep the binary builds as "skinny" as possible (and specifically
> optimized for the individual platforms).
>
> 2) Apple has ended PPC support in their latest operating systems (OS X 10.6
> Snow Leopard "Upgrade" version and later).
>
> 3) OS X 10.7 and later will be for Intel Builds ONLY (according to Apple),
> and OS X has already stopped supporting PPC architecture on their current
> developer tools.
>
> 4) PPC users (as few as there are out there) will probably be upset if we
> don't currently support legacy PPC architecture (for at least another 2+
> years till OS X 10.7 is released)
>
> Ubuntu's Technical Board and Emerald Viewer seems to be following this same
> path, so we may want to do what Emerald Viewer is doing, and just release 3
> separate Mac Binaries (one optimized for Intel Only, one as a "Universal"
> binary which supports both Intel and Legacy PPC but is much fatter, and then
> a PPC Only binary which is optimized for PPC architecture).
>
> I've never done viewer builds optimized for the various platforms, but I
> know the author of Emerald Viewer is currently doing this, and Emerald seems
> to be one of the best SL viewers out there right now (most widely used). So
> if we're going to begin pushing Naali, it would probably be good to have
> optimized binaries available for Mac.
>
> PPC support on Ubuntu is still ongoing (but "unofficial"):
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCReview
>
> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCReview>So we can probably offer an
> "Unofficial" support on PPC architecture (simply because I don't even have
> any old legacy PPC hardware to even test the old legacy PPC architecture
> builds on), and Ubuntu has only pledged to support PPC (unofficially) for a
> 2 year term (once OS X 10.7 comes out, PPC support will be dead).
>
> So for the interim, I believe we should just do 3 separate builds for Mac
> (Intel Only, Universal, and PPC Only). Then as Ubuntu and Apple kill off
> PPC, then we may just support an Intel Only, and "unofficially" support a
> Universal build (for one additional year), and then after that kill off PPC
> all together.
>
> I believe 3 years (till 2014) is plenty of support to give PPC users time
> to migrate over to Intel hardware architecture. (I supposed technically we
> could continue with 3 separate builds, just to please any PPC users out
> there, but after 3 years, I believe we should only do a PPC binary release
> maybe once every 3 months, or every 6 months for PPC, and not a nightly
> build after 3+ years)
>
> But for now, it would probably be good to do the 3 separate nightly Mac
> builds, just to please the Mac community. Especially if we want Naali to
> overtake Emerald in widespread community adopted viewer usage.
>
> I'd like 3 bots, for doing the following:
>
> 1) Nightly "Intel Only" build
> 2) Nightly "Universal Binary" build
> 3) Nightly "PPC Binary" build
>
> Then in about 12 months, as Naali becomes more stable, I may switch to a
> monthly build (for PPC Binary) instead of a nightly build.
>
> Once Naali Viewer begins to hit 1.0 and later, I believe a monthly build
> for PPC architecture should be sufficient. (I can still continue with
> nightly builds of "Intel Only" and "Universal" and just have a bot do a
> monthly or bi-weekly build for PPC)
>
> That way we support all 3 Mac "optimized" binaries.
>
> Once that is done, and we get closer to a stable Naali 1.0 build, then I'd
> really like to begin looking at Naali Viewer Builds optimized for XBOX 360,
> Playstation 3, and possibly even Wii. ;-)
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:15 AM, antont <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 7, 4:22 am, Mark Malewski <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > Will Naali 0.1 also work with the vanilla OpenSim (standard OpenSim
>> login),
>> > and also with OpenSim + ModRex? (with standard OpenSim logins)
>>
>> Yes, it has had vanilla opensim/sl login and the old rexauth from the
>> beginning. But also the weblogin / openid auth that works against
>> taiga (cable beach / sciencesim).
>>
>> The startup screen in 0.1 explains these options.
>>
>> The quick anonymous login buts are preconfigured automatic logins to
>> opensim standalone where auth has been turned off, with a unique
>> account that naali gets from a web server.
>>
>> > *> support is on the way as well. I hope there are some enthusiastic Mac
>> and
>> > Linux users *
>>
>> I've been using only Linux now for some days, and hope that can mostly
>> stay on this friendlier side for most of my ReX and other work from
>> now on. Have Naali and Taiga trunks working perfectly etc. - thanks
>> for Erno and Ryan etc. for making that easy (i just needed to run the
>> installer scripts basically on a fresh ubuntu install to a new laptop,
>> easier than setting up a dev env on windows :)
>>
>> > I have a couple of 2009 8-Core Mac Pro's (with 32GB of RAM), and a few
>> 21"
>> > iMac's that I can use for platform testing. I'm also running Windows
>> Vista
>>
>> There's a script in Naali svn tools/ that builds it on a mac.
>>
>> > *> **From now on we intend to make new binary releases more often*
>> > That would be great! I really do like the idea of posting updated
>> binary
>> > releases more often.
>>
>> We have both Linux and Windows build bots setup, they compile Naali
>> after each commit. Perhaps you can host one for Mac? I think those
>> builds should simply be available to download so anyone can just grab
>> a prebuilt current dev version at any time.
>>
>> But yes, also good to tag certain well working releases quite
>> frequently like OpenSim does, 'cause the trunk head is the dev place
>> which is expected to be broken at times etc.
>>
>> And then real stabilization too (post-fixes style), but the time for
>> that is a bit later.
>>
>> > Mark
>>
>> ~Toni
>>
>> > 2010/1/18 Antti Ilomäki <[email protected]>
>> >
>> > > As the version number suggests it's not a finished product, but the
>> > >> programmers have been busy and managed to produce some pretty
>> impressive
>> > >> stuff. This version a complete replacement for the previous
>> generation
>> > >> technology, but from now on we will be offering Naali as an
>> alternative for
>> > >> the more adventurous users. Judging by the recent pace in
>> development, it
>> > >> won't be long until the earlier viewer versions can be completely
>> replaced
>> > >> by the new and shiny stuff.
>> >
>> > >>http://realxtend.blogspot.com/2010/01/naali-01-released.html
>> >
>> > >> --
>> >
>> > >>http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> > >>http://www.realxtend.org
>>
>> --
>> http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
>> http://www.realxtend.org
>>
>
>
--
http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend
http://www.realxtend.org
