Hi Naomi,
On re-reading, my post is a bit garbled.
I meant to say that was the problem---there were no treaties between the
invaders and the Aboriginal groups or nations that lived here.
Once a Treaty is signed between representatives of Aboriginal people and the
government, Indigenous groups or nations who felt their particular sovereign
needs were not properly met under the terms of the Treaty, would , I
suppose, be pushing for addendums to the Treaty .
The reference to non- indigenous groups is in the context of, if a Treaty is
signed I would expect that there would be ongoing legal queries from various
groups as to what rights or otherwise they have under the terms of the
Treaty----similar to the ongoing debates and legal disputes over the
Constitution in the U.S. for example.
>From where I sit, the vital point is that the terms of the Treaty be drawn
up by Aboriginal people,and then presented to the government for agreement
or negotiation.
In my opinion, there will be no permanent result if the government again
sets the terms of an 'agreement' or a "compact" or reconciliation'' or
whatever else (except Treaty) that they want to call it.
Laurie
Laurie and Desley Forde
Email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Without a treaty, which spells out the obligations and rights of both
parties, there can be no Reconciliation in Australia----Geoff Clark.
------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Naomi Wolfe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Geoff Clark Speech: From here to a treaty
>
> just a query what "treaties with ABoriginal groups" are you talking about?
> Cause as far as I know there were no treaties in the form of what Geoff
and
> others are talking about.
>
> Another query what "non-indigenous groups in Australia" need a treaty?
> Treaty is to do with sovereignty, Aboriginal people don't occupy the
land -
> land owns Aboriginal people. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders were
> invaded and dispossessed of their country, their land, and their spiritual
> homes.
>
> But I would like to see an honest discussion on how people really feel
> about a Makarrata and whether the general public, those who walked and
> those who didnt, know exactly what treaty could mean for Australia.
>
>
> naomi
>
>
> At 13:43 12/09/00 +1100, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >Hi Tim
> >
> >Getting the final form of the Treaty down will certainly not be easy, but
I
> >think that the ATSTC starting point of a national document , prepared by
a
> >national Aboriginal body creates a situation where negotiation can then
> >take
> >place with the government.
> >
> >Once this Treaty is signed ,Aboriginal groups as well as non-indigenous
> >groups are then able to push their case for further treaties or
agreements.
> >
> >Initially, before we can go on to further refinement, we need a treaty
> >which is in lieu of the treaties that should have been made between the
> >invaders and the various Aboriginal groups occupying this Country at
that
> >time.
> >
> >Until this is accomplished, no non-indigenous person has a legal or moral
> >right to be here----our national sickness of shame and our consequent
> >mistreatment of First Peoples will continue.
> >
> >Laurie
> >
> >Laurie and Desley Forde
> >Email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Without a treaty, which spells out the obligations and rights of both
> >parties, there can be no Reconciliation in Australia----Geoff Clark.
> >
> >
> >---------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2000 11:11 PM
> >Subject: Re: [recoznet2] Geoff Clark Speech: From here to a treaty
> >
> >
> >> Hi Laurie,
> >>
> >> I agree about the lack of media coverage - all the more reason to be
> >> grateful for forums like recoznet2 where 'unmediated' information gets
> >> circulated.
> >>
> >> Clarke's discussion of sovereignty is fascinating and I only wish I
knew
> >> more about it - but at least he points me in the direction of further
> >> research.
> >>
> >> I am sceptical about a few of his tentative proposals, in particular
> >about
> >a
> >> 40 person treaty commission. It is the composition of it that worries
> >me.
> >> Picking up on your point of 'power to the people' I'd like to see 'the
> >> people' represented on such a committee - in fact I'd like to see it
> >consist
> >> of nothing but 'the people'. The various sides of the argument could
be
> >> represented through their various experts and spokespeople, but they
> >should
> >> be there to inform 'the public's' judgements, not replace them. That
is,
> >> the committee should consist of a random selection of ordinary people
> >with
> >> power devolved to them.
> >>
> >> In reality, you'd probably need a number of such committees formed
> >> throughout the country and then some sort of 'coming together' for a
> >final
> >> discussion. Might be slow and expensive but I'd warrant you'd get a
> >better
> >> result than you would through some sort of elite-driven constitutional
> >> convention.
> >>
> >> Another of Clarke's points that was of interest was the following:
> >>
> >> <begin excerpt>
> >> Firstly, I am convinced that there must be a national treaty put in
> >> place before there is any devolution to local or regional treaties.
> >>
> >> During the 'Makarrata' debate conducted by the NAC there was a
> >> widespread view that the various groups of Aboriginal and Torres Strait
> >> Islander people should be negotiating, as sovereign people in there own
> >> right, their own treaties, and without interference from other
indigenous
> >> groups.
> >>
> >> This became a problem at that time, in the 1980s, and contributed
> >> (although perhaps in only a small way) to the lack of momentum in
> >> obtaining government commitment to the treaty concept.
> >>
> >> Further the separate and uncoordinated negotiation of treaties has the
> >> potential:
> >>
> >> * to result in unequal results for different groups,
> >> * to lead to omission of fundamental provisions in treaties, and
> >> * to cause a blockage through uncoordinated demands upon government
> >> and professional services.
> >>
> >> A national treaty could and should serve as the standard-setting
> >> document for local or regional treaties. It could ensure that basic
> >> elements are addressed in all treaties. It could ensure that basic
> >rights
> >> and
> >> provisions are delivered where other treaties have not or will not be
> >> negotiated.
> >>
> >> If a national treaty is to be prepared then it is necessary that the
> >> Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people become committed to that
> >> purpose and remain disciplined in following a set course of procedure.
> >>
> >> It is counter-productive for people to 'splinter' from the national
> >agenda,
> >> to claim that they do not accept the national approach. This will
> >> happen of course. There is no way to prevent it.
> >> <end excerpt>
> >>
> >> I'd be interested to hear Tony Spiers view on this as he wrote
forcefully
> >a
> >> while back:
> >>
> >> "The S-word for these groups is not "Sorry", it is "SOVEREIGNTY" -- not
> >> as a grant of racist patronage from Her Majesty's Parliament, but
> >something
> >> we ourselves assert. We cannot afford to compromise on matters of
basic
> >> principle. THE ONLY TREATIES OUR GREAT GRANDCHILDREN WILL RESPECT US
FOR
> >> ARE THE TREATIES WE SIGN WITH EACH OTHER."
> >>
> >> A Treaty is the way to go, it seems to me, but the process of getting
it
> >is
> >> just as important as the end result. It is this as much as anything
that
> >> still needs a lot of work.
> >>
> >> Tim
> >>
> >>
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