That's pretty emational stuff Eric. Thanks for the background information. I agree with the assessment that LiveServer is not for the non-coder to use.
Do you have an opinion on the WebComponents stuff? Compared to today's commercial grade social media platform (Jive, Lithuam, Onsite, Telligent and etc.) what was shipped with LiveServer to handle social media is truly "hello world" grade. I was attacked by certain people within RedDot as "not knowing how to use it." But I stuck with my opinion and challenged my criticizers to cite ONE example of a RedDot-managed site that uses the WebComponents stuff to generate wiki, forum, comments etc. Just give me one example. At least I have not found one and nobody has given me one, albeit many a license have been sold to many clients. I know the point is kind of moot now as OpenText is swapping the stuff with Vignette components, but I am curious if I am really alone in my opinion on the WebComponent stuff. Henry On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Eric Koleda <[email protected]> wrote: > I worked as a LiveServer specialist for three years at RedDot, so I > think I can bring a unique point of view. The application was > originally started as a complete rewrite of CMS in Java, but got > scrapped along the way. In order to save the investment they instead > converted it to a "personalization engine". > > In my opinion LiveServer is kind of like a web application platform. > It takes a lot of things that are possible to build on your own and > tries to make them easy. It tries to replace coding with dialogs. It > tries to make it so non-technical people can add dynamic features to > their website. > > In many respects it fails at this. Learning the custom DynaMent > language takes time, and few developers have the skill. It was never > made easy enough that a non-developer could build the functionality, > and any good developer would prefer build to build it themselves. I > think that the connectors, when they work, cut out a lot of the nitty > gritty of dealing with LDAP, search, etc, but I don't know if they are > worth the money and the support contract. > > If you have talented developers at your organization don't get > LiveServer. If you don't have talented developers, hire them :-) > > - Eric > > On Jun 9, 12:10 pm, "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Don't know the circumstances on #1 so cannot really comment. > > > > On #2, I've come across with at least two client who had LiveServer set > up > > before I cam eonboard and had their LiveServer http encoding set as > "guess" > > instead of specific such as utf-8. That config takes care of the > character > > encoding. It has at least worked for me. > > > > #3 -- I wonder if yours is a "zone" issue. If a file bearing xml > extension > > is published into LiveServer, all tags are indexed by Verity as zones and > > therefore granularly searchable and can be brought up in search via the > > context tag inclusion. With html files, only a few (such as "title") tags > > can be indexed as zones. Just a thought. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:47 AM, bobbykjack <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > I don't know whether it's down to a) how our search was initially set > > > up b) my own inability to fix it or c) inherent flaws with the > > > LiveServer / verity integration, but we've had the following problems: > > > > > 1. The search in LiveServer quickly exposes lots of duplicate content > > > you'll probably be publishing due to target containers, different > > > publishing packages on references/links, etc. And content always seems > > > to hang around in LiveServer FAR longer than you'd like. > > > > > 2. Problems with content-encoding - our search results contain the > > > classic 'broken character' glyph all over the place. There seems to be > > > no good solution to this. > > > > > 3. The 'context' presented alongside search results is a complete joke > > > > > If I had my way, I'd just point our search form to POST to google and > > > be done with it ... > > > > > - Bobby > > > > > On Jun 9, 3:53 pm, "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > I'm not pro-LiveServer or anything. So I am not advising anyone to > buy > > > > LiveServer but for poeple who have bought LiveServer, I see many > pluses > > > to > > > > use it. > > > > > > LiveServer is mainly designed as an XML based content engine. If you > > > happen > > > > to have structured an XML project variant in your RedDot CMS, it is > > > breeze > > > > to let LiveServer digest your CMS-generated content and deliver them > > > > personalized. > > > > > > The other benefit of LiveServer is the embedded Verity search engine. > It > > > is > > > > an OEM version but nonetheless commercial grade. It completes the > neat > > > > coupling of CMS and personalized content delivery as all XML tags can > be > > > > interpreted as database field and explicit or implicit search can be > > > > conducted using SQL syntax. > > > > > > And the LDAP connector allows you to use your AD or other LDAP to > manage > > > > site user base and implement SSO fairly reliably and easily. > > > > > > I am well aware of the hostility toward LiveServer in the RedDot > > > community. > > > > But I have done projects whereby LiveServer was designed to deliver > > > targeted > > > > content to a .NET application, and LiveServer was designed to ingest > > > content > > > > generated from Drupal; I've also done projects whereby LiveServer has > to > > > > intereact with ConstantContact API and one whereby LiveServer has to > > > deliver > > > > product search result en masse (and the caching mechanism of > LiveServer > > > > proved to be robust enough). > > > > > > The biggest, yet a bit intagible benefit of LiveServer is that the > task > > > of > > > > content "organization" can be delegated to LiveServer instead of > fighting > > > > the uphill battle inside RedDot CMS. Many hot topics on this board, > such > > > as > > > > pagination, show and hide ans etc can be implemented in LiveServer > with a > > > > fraction of the effort you'd put when doing it inside CMS. I always > tell > > > my > > > > client, "CMS is a workshop, treat it as a laundry chute and let > > > LiveServer > > > > handle the presentation logic on the live site." > > > > > > So I really have nothing to hate about LiveServer except when a > customer > > > > wants to build a social community out of LiveServer. That is the > moment I > > > > absolutely jump out of LiveServer. The so-called LiveServer > WebComponents > > > > cutely named as Wiki, Forum and etc are just no more than a joke. > > > > > > And I think OpenText is admitting it now bacuase it is shipping > Vignette > > > > components to customers who have bought those WebComponents now. > > > > > > So my conclusion? YMMV. If you are humble enough to go through the > > > > documentation, you will learn to set up a LiveServer installation and > > > find > > > > most built-in features handy and easy. If you expect to use > LiveServer's > > > > proprietary Dynament API in the same fashion you have learnt and are > > > using > > > > as .NET, PHP or Java, you will hate LiveServer immediately. > > > > > > Henry Lu, a.k.a., Javahand > > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:09 AM, TonyGayter < > [email protected] > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > My advise is to not use it. We have used it once and regret it. Its > a > > > > > pain to learn and use. As far as I remember its around 25k which is > > > > > far to much. My advise would be to just integrate .net into the > site > > > > > and use a google box for the search, only a couple of grand then. > Far > > > > > cheaper and a better alternative. (.Net also works wihtin smartedit > if > > > > > done properly which live server doesnt.) > > > > > > > On Jun 9, 10:56 am, bobbykjack <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > LiveServer is a content delivery application, which offers some > of > > > the > > > > > > scripting capabilities of a language such as PHP. It also > provides > > > > > > some of the features that a web server offers. > > > > > > > > Our use of it is very minimal (and I've always been tempted to > remove > > > > > > it from our 'stack') - almost entirely restricted to internal > search. > > > > > > However, the results we've seen from that search function are > less > > > > > > than perfect, to say the least. It's also difficult (if not > > > > > > impossible) to combine LiveServer and PHP, so if you have a page > that > > > > > > needs to contain PHP script, it has to bypass LiveServer. > > > > > > > > My big beef with LiveServer is that it's yet another language to > > > learn > > > > > > (one which only a tiny number of people will ever know, compared > to > > > > > > something like PHP) and it's nowhere near as flexible as a > 'normal' > > > > > > scripting language. > > > > > > > > Having said that, I've recently identified another potential use > > > which > > > > > > I'm just about to post about ... > > > > > > > > - Bobby > > > > > > > > On Jun 9, 1:16 am, gk <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > > We've been using the RedDot CMS V9 for 12 months now but we had > a > > > > > > > limited budget at the time we bought it and so we don't have > > > > > > > Liveserver - in fact Liveserver was never even mentioned by our > > > > > > > supplier. I'm just wondering if someone can tell me what > Liveserver > > > > > > > actually does and whether it's worth thinking about adding it > to > > > our > > > > > > > setup? > > > > > > > > > Also, a very rough idea of the cost would be appreciated as I > don't > > > > > > > want to initiate any sales discussions until I know whether it > > > might > > > > > > > be totally out of our price range.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups > > > > > "RedDot CMS Users" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > . > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]><reddot-cms-users%2Bunsubscrib > [email protected]> > > > <reddot-cms-users%[email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]><reddot-cms-users%252Bunsub > [email protected]> > > > > > > > . > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > >646-807-8683 > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "RedDot CMS Users" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > . > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]><reddot-cms-users%2Bunsubscrib > [email protected]> > > > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. > > > > -- > > 646-807-8683 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RedDot CMS Users" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. > > -- 646-807-8683 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RedDot CMS Users" group. 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