A couple things from my perspective. We (www.oshyn.com) have been implementing sites w/ OTWS MS and LiveServer/Delivery Server for about 3-4 years and have found it to be a decent platform. It's a java app so it requires love and tuning to make it work well, but that's the same with any java app. If you want to do content personalization and/or secuirty of content from OT CMS, it works well enough. What we tell our customers is: If you need to do custom functionality on your external site, you need SOME platform to do it. If you have existing .NET/PHP/Java components or people that you want to use, it's fine to publish from OTWS MS into those apps. If you have nothing and you need something, DS will do just fine. If you have personalization and content security requirements on OTWS MS content, that also pushes you back to using Delivery Server and taking advantage of pre-existing components using the connectors (typically web services work fine). It typically is more work to build content security and content personalization of OTWS MS content in PHP/.NET/Java than it is to just use DS. It's really a question of where the balance of your requirements lie in order to determine the right decision for you. I also agree with some other posts that Verity search results can be somewhat disappointing and at the very least, tuning serach results are more manageable from GSA or google mini and will yeild better site search results overall than verity. However many times, we've implemented BOTH: used GSA for site search, but used Verity for personalization and security. There are also some other performance advantages to using this combined type of architecture, but it's more stuff to maintain. Dynamenst aren't really that hard to learn and they are tuned specifically for OT content and personalization of that content. The problem is, it IS another language one must learn (and it doesn't really help anyone on their resume). I don't really know why they chose this instead of using something standard. They do have basic programming constructs like: if/else, looping, setting/retrieving variables, calling external database or web services. These are the basics you tend to need when building a content driven website. If you need to do anything that can't be done in Dynaments, you can easily drop down to Java and do whatever you need to do there. Web Components is fairly useless as an architecture, however, the components that they've created are super basic and can/do work. I've talked about implementing them a number of times w/ clients but never have b/c of the feature requirements. We have them in our lab environment so we know they work. If you need anything sophisticated out of Forums/Blogs/Calendars/Comments, etc., then you won't find them in those components. HOWEVER, if you need the content in them personalized or secure, it's much easier to do by using the Web Components instead of integrating a 3rd party system. Also, i've got a number of customers who don't have immediate needs and are therefore waiting to see what crossover will come form the Vignette Social Media tools. I haven't seen them, but my guess is that we'll have to wait to version 1.5 (instead of the initial release) before it's worth implementing the "integrated" vignette social media tools and we have no idea when they will release them. That usually leaves customers who have an immediate need with trying the current DS Web Components or lookign for a 3rd party or hosted solution and integrating it (and losing searchability and personalizatoin of that content or doing work to integrate) In terms of cost of DS server, I can't give any type of official response (* disclaimer *). I also don't know if it's changed recently or if OT has changed it since the acquisition and of course, it changes depending on your size, number you are purchasing and overall negotiating prowess. However, a server licenses for DS used to be slightly less than a server license for CMS/MS (probably about 80-90%). I'd be happy to answer any specific questions at my email address: [email protected] . We also have a bunch of blog posts on OTWS DS and the different stuff you can do with it on this blog (feel free to scroll past the marketing stuff :) ): http://www.oshyn.com/_blog/Web_Content_Management/category/OpenText/
Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> To: "Christian Burne" <[email protected]> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:11:39 -0400 Subject: [reddot] what does liveserver actually do That's pretty emational stuff Eric. Thanks for the background information. I agree with the assessment that LiveServer is not for the non-coder to use. Do you have an opinion on the WebComponents stuff? Compared to today's commercial grade social media platform (Jive, Lithuam, Onsite, Telligent and etc.) what was shipped with LiveServer to handle social media is truly "hello world" grade. I was attacked by certain people within RedDot as "not knowing how to use it." But I stuck with my opinion and challenged my criticizers to cite ONE example of a RedDot-managed site that uses the WebComponents stuff to generate wiki, forum, comments etc. Just give me one example. At least I have not found one and nobody has given me one, albeit many a license have been sold to many clients. I know the point is kind of moot now as OpenText is swapping the stuff with Vignette components, but I am curious if I am really alone in my opinion on the WebComponent stuff. Henry On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Eric Koleda <[email protected] > wrote: I worked as a LiveServer specialist for three years at RedDot, so I think I can bring a unique point of view. The application was originally started as a complete rewrite of CMS in Java, but got scrapped along the way. In order to save the investment they instead converted it to a "personalization engine". In my opinion LiveServer is kind of like a web application platform. It takes a lot of things that are possible to build on your own and tries to make them easy. It tries to replace coding with dialogs. It tries to make it so non-technical people can add dynamic features to their website. In many respects it fails at this. Learning the custom DynaMent language takes time, and few developers have the skill. It was never made easy enough that a non-developer could build the functionality, and any good developer would prefer build to build it themselves. I think that the connectors, when they work, cut out a lot of the nitty gritty of dealing with LDAP, search, etc, but I don't know if they are worth the money and the support contract. If you have talented developers at your organization don't get LiveServer. If you don't have talented developers, hire them :-) - Eric On Jun 9, 12:10 pm, "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> wrote: > Don't know the circumstances on #1 so cannot really comment. > > On #2, I've come across with at least two client who had LiveServer set up > before I cam eonboard and had their LiveServer http encoding set as "guess" > instead of specific such as utf-8. That config takes care of the character > encoding. It has at least worked for me. > > #3 -- I wonder if yours is a "zone" issue. If a file bearing xml extension > is published into LiveServer, all tags are indexed by Verity as zones and > therefore granularly searchable and can be brought up in search via the > context tag inclusion. With html files, only a few (such as "title") tags > can be indexed as zones. Just a thought. > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:47 AM, bobbykjack <[email protected]> wrote: > > I don't know whether it's down to a) how our search was initially set > > up b) my own inability to fix it or c) inherent flaws with the > > LiveServer / verity integration, but we've had the following problems: > > > 1. The search in LiveServer quickly exposes lots of duplicate content > > you'll probably be publishing due to target containers, different > > publishing packages on references/links, etc. And content always seems > > to hang around in LiveServer FAR longer than you'd like. > > > 2. Problems with content-encoding - our search results contain the > > classic 'broken character' glyph all over the place. There seems to be > > no good solution to this. > > > 3. The 'context' presented alongside search results is a complete joke > > > If I had my way, I'd just point our search form to POST to google and > > be done with it ... > > > - Bobby > > > On Jun 9, 3:53 pm, "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > I'm not pro-LiveServer or anything. So I am not advising anyone to buy > > > LiveServer but for poeple who have bought LiveServer, I see many pluses > > to > > > use it. > > > > LiveServer is mainly designed as an XML based content engine. If you > > happen > > > to have structured an XML project variant in your RedDot CMS, it is > > breeze > > > to let LiveServer digest your CMS-generated content and deliver them > > > personalized. > > > > The other benefit of LiveServer is the embedded Verity search engine. It > > is > > > an OEM version but nonetheless commercial grade. It completes the neat > > > coupling of CMS and personalized content delivery as all XML tags can be > > > interpreted as database field and explicit or implicit search can be > > > conducted using SQL syntax. > > > > And the LDAP connector allows you to use your AD or other LDAP to manage > > > site user base and implement SSO fairly reliably and easily. > > > > I am well aware of the hostility toward LiveServer in the RedDot > > community. > > > But I have done projects whereby LiveServer was designed to deliver > > targeted > > > content to a .NET application, and LiveServer was designed to ingest > > content > > > generated from Drupal; I've also done projects whereby LiveServer has to > > > intereact with ConstantContact API and one whereby LiveServer has to > > deliver > > > product search result en masse (and the caching mechanism of LiveServer > > > proved to be robust enough). > > > > The biggest, yet a bit intagible benefit of LiveServer is that the task > > of > > > content "organization" can be delegated to LiveServer instead of fighting > > > the uphill battle inside RedDot CMS. Many hot topics on this board, such > > as > > > pagination, show and hide ans etc can be implemented in LiveServer with a > > > fraction of the effort you'd put when doing it inside CMS. I always tell > > my > > > client, "CMS is a workshop, treat it as a laundry chute and let > > LiveServer > > > handle the presentation logic on the live site." > > > > So I really have nothing to hate about LiveServer except when a customer > > > wants to build a social community out of LiveServer. That is the moment I > > > absolutely jump out of LiveServer. The so-called LiveServer WebComponents > > > cutely named as Wiki, Forum and etc are just no more than a joke. > > > > And I think OpenText is admitting it now bacuase it is shipping Vignette > > > components to customers who have bought those WebComponents now. > > > > So my conclusion? YMMV. If you are humble enough to go through the > > > documentation, you will learn to set up a LiveServer installation and > > find > > > most built-in features handy and easy. If you expect to use LiveServer's > > > proprietary Dynament API in the same fashion you have learnt and are > > using > > > as .NET, PHP or Java, you will hate LiveServer immediately. > > > > Henry Lu, a.k.a., Javahand > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:09 AM, TonyGayter <[email protected] > > >wrote: > > > > > My advise is to not use it. We have used it once and regret it. Its a > > > > pain to learn and use. As far as I remember its around 25k which is > > > > far to much. My advise would be to just integrate .net into the site > > > > and use a google box for the search, only a couple of grand then. Far > > > > cheaper and a better alternative. (.Net also works wihtin smartedit if > > > > done properly which live server doesnt.) > > > > > On Jun 9, 10:56 am, bobbykjack <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > LiveServer is a content delivery application, which offers some of > > the > > > > > scripting capabilities of a language such as PHP. It also provides > > > > > some of the features that a web server offers. > > > > > > Our use of it is very minimal (and I've always been tempted to remove > > > > > it from our 'stack') - almost entirely restricted to internal search. > > > > > However, the results we've seen from that search function are less > > > > > than perfect, to say the least. It's also difficult (if not > > > > > impossible) to combine LiveServer and PHP, so if you have a page that > > > > > needs to contain PHP script, it has to bypass LiveServer. > > > > > > My big beef with LiveServer is that it's yet another language to > > learn > > > > > (one which only a tiny number of people will ever know, compared to > > > > > something like PHP) and it's nowhere near as flexible as a 'normal' > > > > > scripting language. > > > > > > Having said that, I've recently identified another potential use > > which > > > > > I'm just about to post about ... > > > > > > - Bobby > > > > > > On Jun 9, 1:16 am, gk <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > We've been using the RedDot CMS V9 for 12 months now but we had a > > > > > > limited budget at the time we bought it and so we don't have > > > > > > Liveserver - in fact Liveserver was never even mentioned by our > > > > > > supplier. I'm just wondering if someone can tell me what Liveserver > > > > > > actually does and whether it's worth thinking about adding it to > > our > > > > > > setup? > > > > > > > Also, a very rough idea of the cost would be appreciated as I don't > > > > > > want to initiate any sales discussions until I know whether it > > might > > > > > > be totally out of our price range.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > > "RedDot CMS Users" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > > . > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > [email protected] <reddot-cms-users%2Bunsubscrib [email protected]> > > < reddot-cms-users%[email protected] <reddot-cms-users%252Bunsub [email protected]> > > > > > . > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. > > > > -- > > >646-807-8683 > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "RedDot CMS Users" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected] <reddot-cms-users%2Bunsubscrib [email protected]> > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. > > -- > 646-807-8683 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RedDot CMS Users" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. -- 646-807-8683 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RedDot CMS Users" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RedDot CMS Users" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en.
