Do you happen to know ONE example of WebComponent implementation on a active public site?
And I am glad you said they were useless. Henry On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Christian Burne <[email protected]> wrote: > A couple things from my perspective. We (www.oshyn.com) have been > implementing sites w/ OTWS MS and LiveServer/Delivery Server for about 3-4 > years and have found it to be a decent platform. It's a java app so it > requires love and tuning to make it work well, but that's the same with any > java app. If you want to do content personalization and/or secuirty of > content from OT CMS, it works well enough. > > What we tell our customers is: If you need to do custom functionality on > your external site, you need SOME platform to do it. If you have existing > .NET/PHP/Java components or people that you want to use, it's fine to > publish from OTWS MS into those apps. If you have nothing and you need > something, DS will do just fine. If you have personalization and content > security requirements on OTWS MS content, that also pushes you back to using > Delivery Server and taking advantage of pre-existing components using the > connectors (typically web services work fine). It typically is more work to > build content security and content personalization of OTWS MS content in > PHP/.NET/Java than it is to just use DS. It's really a question of where > the balance of your requirements lie in order to determine the right > decision for you. > > I also agree with some other posts that Verity search results can be > somewhat disappointing and at the very least, tuning serach results are more > manageable from GSA or google mini and will yeild better site search results > overall than verity. However many times, we've implemented BOTH: used > GSA for site search, but used Verity for personalization and security. > There are also some other performance advantages to using this combined type > of architecture, but it's more stuff to maintain. > > Dynamenst aren't really that hard to learn and they are tuned > specifically for OT content and personalization of that content. The > problem is, it IS another language one must learn (and it doesn't really > help anyone on their resume). I don't really know why they chose this > instead of using something standard. They do have basic programming > constructs like: if/else, looping, setting/retrieving variables, calling > external database or web services. These are the basics you tend to need > when building a content driven website. If you need to do anything that > can't be done in Dynaments, you can easily drop down to Java and do whatever > you need to do there. > > Web Components is fairly useless as an architecture, however, the > components that they've created are super basic and can/do work. I've > talked about implementing them a number of times w/ clients but never have > b/c of the feature requirements. We have them in our lab environment so we > know they work. If you need anything sophisticated out of > Forums/Blogs/Calendars/Comments, etc., then you won't find them in those > components. HOWEVER, if you need the content in them personalized or > secure, it's much easier to do by using the Web Components instead of > integrating a 3rd party system. Also, i've got a number of customers who > don't have immediate needs and are therefore waiting to see what crossover > will come form the Vignette Social Media tools. I haven't seen them, but my > guess is that we'll have to wait to version 1.5 (instead of the initial > release) before it's worth implementing the "integrated" vignette social > media tools and we have no idea when they will release them. That usually > leaves customers who have an immediate need with trying the current DS Web > Components or lookign for a 3rd party or hosted solution and integrating it > (and losing searchability and personalizatoin of that content or doing work > to integrate) > > In terms of cost of DS server, I can't give any type of official response > (* disclaimer *). I also don't know if it's changed recently or if > OT has changed it since the acquisition and of course, it changes depending > on your size, number you are purchasing and overall negotiating prowess. > However, a server licenses for DS used to be slightly less than a server > license for CMS/MS (probably about 80-90%). > > I'd be happy to answer any specific questions at my email address: > [email protected] . We also have a bunch of blog posts on OTWS DS and > the different stuff you can do with it on this blog (feel free to scroll > past the marketing stuff :) ): > http://www.oshyn.com/_blog/Web_Content_Management/category/OpenText/ > > Thanks. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> > To: "Christian Burne" <[email protected]> > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:11:39 -0400 > Subject: [reddot] what does liveserver actually do > > That's pretty emational stuff Eric. Thanks for the background information. > > I agree with the assessment that LiveServer is not for the non-coder to > use. > > Do you have an opinion on the WebComponents stuff? Compared to today's > commercial grade social media platform (Jive, Lithuam, Onsite, Telligent and > etc.) what was shipped with LiveServer to handle social media is truly > "hello world" grade. > > I was attacked by certain people within RedDot as "not knowing how to use > it." But I stuck with my opinion and challenged my criticizers to cite ONE > example of a RedDot-managed site that uses the WebComponents stuff to > generate wiki, forum, comments etc. > > Just give me one example. At least I have not found one and nobody has > given me one, albeit many a license have been sold to many clients. > > I know the point is kind of moot now as OpenText is swapping the stuff with > Vignette components, but I am curious if I am really alone in my opinion on > the WebComponent stuff. > > Henry > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Eric Koleda <[email protected] > wrote: > >> I worked as a LiveServer specialist for three years at RedDot, so I >> think I can bring a unique point of view. The application was >> originally started as a complete rewrite of CMS in Java, but got >> scrapped along the way. In order to save the investment they instead >> converted it to a "personalization engine". >> >> In my opinion LiveServer is kind of like a web application platform. >> It takes a lot of things that are possible to build on your own and >> tries to make them easy. It tries to replace coding with dialogs. It >> tries to make it so non-technical people can add dynamic features to >> their website. >> >> In many respects it fails at this. Learning the custom DynaMent >> language takes time, and few developers have the skill. It was never >> made easy enough that a non-developer could build the functionality, >> and any good developer would prefer build to build it themselves. I >> think that the connectors, when they work, cut out a lot of the nitty >> gritty of dealing with LDAP, search, etc, but I don't know if they are >> worth the money and the support contract. >> >> If you have talented developers at your organization don't get >> LiveServer. If you don't have talented developers, hire them :-) >> >> - Eric >> >> On Jun 9, 12:10 pm, "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > Don't know the circumstances on #1 so cannot really comment. >> > >> > On #2, I've come across with at least two client who had LiveServer set >> up >> > before I cam eonboard and had their LiveServer http encoding set as >> "guess" >> > instead of specific such as utf-8. That config takes care of the >> character >> > encoding. It has at least worked for me. >> > >> > #3 -- I wonder if yours is a "zone" issue. If a file bearing xml >> extension >> > is published into LiveServer, all tags are indexed by Verity as zones >> and >> > therefore granularly searchable and can be brought up in search via the >> > context tag inclusion. With html files, only a few (such as "title") >> tags >> > can be indexed as zones. Just a thought. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 11:47 AM, bobbykjack <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > > I don't know whether it's down to a) how our search was initially set >> > > up b) my own inability to fix it or c) inherent flaws with the >> > > LiveServer / verity integration, but we've had the following problems: >> > >> > > 1. The search in LiveServer quickly exposes lots of duplicate content >> > > you'll probably be publishing due to target containers, different >> > > publishing packages on references/links, etc. And content always seems >> > > to hang around in LiveServer FAR longer than you'd like. >> > >> > > 2. Problems with content-encoding - our search results contain the >> > > classic 'broken character' glyph all over the place. There seems to be >> > > no good solution to this. >> > >> > > 3. The 'context' presented alongside search results is a complete joke >> > >> > > If I had my way, I'd just point our search form to POST to google and >> > > be done with it ... >> > >> > > - Bobby >> > >> > > On Jun 9, 3:53 pm, "Henry Lu a.k.a. Javahand" <[email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> > > > I'm not pro-LiveServer or anything. So I am not advising anyone to >> buy >> > > > LiveServer but for poeple who have bought LiveServer, I see many >> pluses >> > > to >> > > > use it. >> > >> > > > LiveServer is mainly designed as an XML based content engine. If you >> > > happen >> > > > to have structured an XML project variant in your RedDot CMS, it is >> > > breeze >> > > > to let LiveServer digest your CMS-generated content and deliver them >> > > > personalized. >> > >> > > > The other benefit of LiveServer is the embedded Verity search >> engine. It >> > > is >> > > > an OEM version but nonetheless commercial grade. It completes the >> neat >> > > > coupling of CMS and personalized content delivery as all XML tags >> can be >> > > > interpreted as database field and explicit or implicit search can be >> > > > conducted using SQL syntax. >> > >> > > > And the LDAP connector allows you to use your AD or other LDAP to >> manage >> > > > site user base and implement SSO fairly reliably and easily. >> > >> > > > I am well aware of the hostility toward LiveServer in the RedDot >> > > community. >> > > > But I have done projects whereby LiveServer was designed to deliver >> > > targeted >> > > > content to a .NET application, and LiveServer was designed to ingest >> > > content >> > > > generated from Drupal; I've also done projects whereby LiveServer >> has to >> > > > intereact with ConstantContact API and one whereby LiveServer has to >> > > deliver >> > > > product search result en masse (and the caching mechanism of >> LiveServer >> > > > proved to be robust enough). >> > >> > > > The biggest, yet a bit intagible benefit of LiveServer is that the >> task >> > > of >> > > > content "organization" can be delegated to LiveServer instead of >> fighting >> > > > the uphill battle inside RedDot CMS. Many hot topics on this board, >> such >> > > as >> > > > pagination, show and hide ans etc can be implemented in LiveServer >> with a >> > > > fraction of the effort you'd put when doing it inside CMS. I always >> tell >> > > my >> > > > client, "CMS is a workshop, treat it as a laundry chute and let >> > > LiveServer >> > > > handle the presentation logic on the live site." >> > >> > > > So I really have nothing to hate about LiveServer except when a >> customer >> > > > wants to build a social community out of LiveServer. That is the >> moment I >> > > > absolutely jump out of LiveServer. The so-called LiveServer >> WebComponents >> > > > cutely named as Wiki, Forum and etc are just no more than a joke. >> > >> > > > And I think OpenText is admitting it now bacuase it is shipping >> Vignette >> > > > components to customers who have bought those WebComponents now. >> > >> > > > So my conclusion? YMMV. If you are humble enough to go through the >> > > > documentation, you will learn to set up a LiveServer installation >> and >> > > find >> > > > most built-in features handy and easy. If you expect to use >> LiveServer's >> > > > proprietary Dynament API in the same fashion you have learnt and are >> > > using >> > > > as .NET, PHP or Java, you will hate LiveServer immediately. >> > >> > > > Henry Lu, a.k.a., Javahand >> > > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:09 AM, TonyGayter < >> [email protected] >> > > >wrote: >> > >> > > > > My advise is to not use it. We have used it once and regret it. >> Its a >> > > > > pain to learn and use. As far as I remember its around 25k which >> is >> > > > > far to much. My advise would be to just integrate .net into the >> site >> > > > > and use a google box for the search, only a couple of grand then. >> Far >> > > > > cheaper and a better alternative. (.Net also works wihtin >> smartedit if >> > > > > done properly which live server doesnt.) >> > >> > > > > On Jun 9, 10:56 am, bobbykjack <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > LiveServer is a content delivery application, which offers some >> of >> > > the >> > > > > > scripting capabilities of a language such as PHP. It also >> provides >> > > > > > some of the features that a web server offers. >> > >> > > > > > Our use of it is very minimal (and I've always been tempted to >> remove >> > > > > > it from our 'stack') - almost entirely restricted to internal >> search. >> > > > > > However, the results we've seen from that search function are >> less >> > > > > > than perfect, to say the least. It's also difficult (if not >> > > > > > impossible) to combine LiveServer and PHP, so if you have a page >> that >> > > > > > needs to contain PHP script, it has to bypass LiveServer. >> > >> > > > > > My big beef with LiveServer is that it's yet another language to >> > > learn >> > > > > > (one which only a tiny number of people will ever know, compared >> to >> > > > > > something like PHP) and it's nowhere near as flexible as a >> 'normal' >> > > > > > scripting language. >> > >> > > > > > Having said that, I've recently identified another potential use >> > > which >> > > > > > I'm just about to post about ... >> > >> > > > > > - Bobby >> > >> > > > > > On Jun 9, 1:16 am, gk <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > Hi everyone, >> > >> > > > > > > We've been using the RedDot CMS V9 for 12 months now but we >> had a >> > > > > > > limited budget at the time we bought it and so we don't have >> > > > > > > Liveserver - in fact Liveserver was never even mentioned by >> our >> > > > > > > supplier. I'm just wondering if someone can tell me what >> Liveserver >> > > > > > > actually does and whether it's worth thinking about adding it >> to >> > > our >> > > > > > > setup? >> > >> > > > > > > Also, a very rough idea of the cost would be appreciated as I >> don't >> > > > > > > want to initiate any sales discussions until I know whether it >> > > might >> > > > > > > be totally out of our price range.- Hide quoted text - >> > >> > > > > > - Show quoted text - >> > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > > Groups >> > > > > "RedDot CMS Users" group. >> > > > > To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> > > . >> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> > > > > [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]><reddot-cms-users%2Bunsubscrib >> [email protected]> >> > > < >> > > reddot-cms-users%[email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]><reddot-cms-users%252Bunsub >> [email protected]> >> > >> > > > > . >> > > > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > > > http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. >> > >> > > > -- >> > > >646-807-8683 >> > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > "RedDot CMS Users" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> > > [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]><reddot-cms-users%2Bunsubscrib >> [email protected]> >> >> > > . >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > > http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. >> > >> > -- >> > 646-807-8683 >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RedDot CMS Users" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. >> >> >> > > > > -- > 646-807-8683 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RedDot CMS Users" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RedDot CMS Users" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<reddot-cms-users%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/reddot-cms-users?hl=en. > -- 646-807-8683 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RedDot CMS Users" group. 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