Dear Paul, What do you say to Will's question about requiring would-be doctors to perform (elective) abortions? Doesn't your note, below, leave open hard questions about what, in fact, is necessarily entailed in a particular job? And, so long as one's scruples are disclosed, why, exactly, should the "separation" you allude to be required, in the counseling context?
Best, Rick Sent from my iPad On Jul 28, 2010, at 5:55 PM, "Paul Finkelman" <paul.finkel...@yahoo.com<mailto:paul.finkel...@yahoo.com>> wrote: I am not suggesting Christians can't go to medical school just that they cannot impose their religious doctrines on their patients and they should not be graduated if they will not do that. Again, Will, are you going to graduate med students who insist on being surgeons but will not use blood transfusion? This issue is not one of belief, nor is it one of practice. It is one of separating the workplace from what you believe outside the workplace. If you cannot make that separation, then it is not unreasonable to suggest that you cannot take a certain job. Would you recruit and train a pacifist Christian for the police department who says I will NEVER carry a gun? How about an EMT, Firefighter, or police officer who will not enter someone else's church or a cemetery on religious grounds? ---- Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, NY 12208 518-445-3386 (p) 518-445-3363 (f) <mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu>paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu<mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu> <http://www.paulfinkelman.com>www.paulfinkelman.com<http://www.paulfinkelman.com> --- On Wed, 7/28/10, Will Esser <willes...@yahoo.com<mailto:willes...@yahoo.com>> wrote: From: Will Esser <willes...@yahoo.com<mailto:willes...@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she undergo "remediation" due to her religious views To: "Law & Religion issues for Law Academics" <religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>> Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 9:18 AM It strikes me that Paul's comments tie in well with the recent discussion about the Fifth Circuit's Arocha decision overturning the school district ban on wearing long hair. As I recall in those discussions, Doug Laycock raised the legitimate question about whether a ban on wearing long hair could cause religious groups to chose not to move to certain regions of the country (i.e. geographical de-selection of religious groups due to government regulation). Similarly, in this case, the question strikes me as whether the therapy program is being set up in such a manner that it "de-selects" certain religious groups (i.e. Christians, in this example). Paul talks about the "standards of the profession". While, I have no doubt there is significant disagreement over what the "standards of the profession" are, it seems to me that if the government (through a university) is involved in saying what the "standards" are in such a way that Christians are automatically de-selected from the program (i.e. you cannot be a faithful, believing Christian AND a therapist), that is a problem. Taking Paul's example of the medical school a step further, could a public medical school set up its program such that students were not allowed to graduate unless they had participated in (or performed) an abortion? Will P.S. As a quick aside, Paul, I think "Christian ethical convictions" of "do unto others" requires respect for people as children of God but does not therefore necessarily require "acceptance" or "respect" of people's values. Christian ethical convictions are based in a belief in objective truth, such that "do unto others" requires a desire to know, understand and lead others to the truth. I would argue that an attitude of "I'll respect what you believe, and you respect what I believe" without an emphasis on seeking truth, is very much divorced from Christian ethical convictions. Will Esser --- Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Charlotte, North Carolina ******************** We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. Plato (428-345 B.C.) ******************** --- On Wed, 7/28/10, Paul Finkelman <paul.finkel...@yahoo.com<mailto:paul.finkel...@yahoo.com>> wrote: From: Paul Finkelman <paul.finkel...@yahoo.com<mailto:paul.finkel...@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she undergo "remediation" due to her religious views To: "Law & Religion issues for Law Academics" <religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>> Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 1:01 AM It would seem to me that "Christian ethical convictoins" would require her to "do unto others" as she would want them to do unto her, and thus perhaps respect their values and act as a responsible therapist. I wonder, suppose she did not believe in blood transfusion and was in a medical school? Would it be legitimate not to give her a degree because she was not willing to apply techniquest of modern medicine to her patients. Suppose she lectured her patients before surgery on how wrong they were for demaning a transfusion during surgery? In otherwords, if she is trained to be a professional in the care field, can she be allowed to take her degree if she refuses to accept the standards of the profession. This is not about her beliefs -- or even her actions. No one is asking her to participate in a same sex relationship. This seesm to me to be about her refusal to implement the standards of her profession because she does not like the behavior of some people. There is also of course some equal protection issues here. I would guess she is against heavy drinking, drug use, and non-marital sex. If she insisting on implementing her religious values when treating patients who might behave in those ways? What about people who don't obey the sabbath (or at least her sabbath)? Or those who don't accept the teachings of Christianity? How far, in other words, does this go, or is she only dragging out her religious values when dealing with gay people? ---- Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, NY 12208 518-445-3386 (p) 518-445-3363 (f) paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu<mailto:paul.finkel...@albanylaw.edu> www.paulfinkelman.com --- On Wed, 7/28/10, Brad Pardee <bp51...@windstream.net> wrote: From: Brad Pardee <bp51...@windstream.net> Subject: Augusta State University student sues school over requirement that she undergo "remediation" due to her religious views To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 12:45 AM Jennifer Keeton is a student at Augusta State University , pursuing a graduate degree in counseling. In line with her religious beliefs, she holds to the traditional view regarding homosexuality. She has expressed those views in classroom discussions as well as in written assignment. In response, the University has informed her that she must complete a remediation program or else she will be expelled from the program. According to the complaint, the “faculty have promised to expel Miss Keeton from the graduate Counselor Education Program not because of poor academic showing or demonstrated deficiencies in clinical performance, but simply because she has communicated both inside and outside the classroom that she holds to Christian ethical convictions on matters of human sexuality and gender identity.” From Atlanta Journal-Constitution: http://www.ajc.com/news/college-punished-her-for-577547.html From Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/27/georgia-university-tells-student-lose-religion-lawsuit-claims/ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ To post, send message to <http://us.mc307.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=religion...@lists.ucla.edu> Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see <http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ To post, send message to </mc/compose?to=religion...@lists.ucla.edu> Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see <http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. <ATT00001..txt>
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