> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> From: "G O Economou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 23:19:07 -0400
> To: "Jim Gettys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Render] Render in X.org & other Xservers
> -----
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Gettys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "G O Economou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 1:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Render] Render in X.org & other Xservers
>
> Georgina,
>
> This is uncalled for. Impuning Alan's motives or questioning his Company's
> contributions is just unacceptable.
>
> First Alan is a spokesman for SUN. Alan as a person does not exist. To
> prove my point,
> would he, has he, ever said something that SUN would not condone? Next....
Alan is an individual here; I am an individual, and so are you. He is not
speaking on behalf of Sun here, but asking questions that are valid, independent
of whether he works for Sun.
Let's take people one person at a time.
>
> I do not think that you have the right to say that what I write is
> 'unacceptable'.
> This is not school and you are not my prof giving me a grade.
> I have every right to question SUN's motives and comments & I wonder what it
> is you are hiding that you will not allow it
> but instead retreat into your old and dusty tome. Could it be you are out
> of touch?
>
> Let me clarify...I don't deem you that you should pretend to be the torch
> bearer of XFREE86 as a simple extension of
> that old whore X. I think that is insulting & frankly I think you know
> better. I say this because
> YOU personally have done little for the XFREE86 project until the last 2-3
> years at the most (I am being
> charitable). That leaves 7 years when it was a struggling project and not
> widely accepted that you were
> comfortably not aligned with it & on the side of establishment of
> proprietary Unix and it's sister X .
I think you are insulting many previous contributors.
I believe I gave at a different open blood bank in that period: the IETF
on the HTTP standard. To be honest, I believed X was dead. Now I do
what I can to help in in ways I can be of help.
>
> In fact, from what I can see in the code base the same would be true of
> Keith; neither of you
> moved to XFREE86 until it was the establishment & now you try to take the
> torch and claim some
> kind of moral victory. Who are you kdding? People who don't know better?
> This rehashing of the MIT association
> is getting shop-worn; like some tiresome platitude that no one hears.
>
> Alan's concerns are very justified. I/you may not agree with all of them,
> but they are valid reasons for concern.
>
>
> I don't think SUN's concerns are valid at all. I think SUN should be doing
> more. Contributing more.
> Underwriting more. This project won't keep up with a cobbling of individual
> efforts. It needsd real money and developmental effort, real hardware, not
> what people
> can buy but pre-release not post. XFREE86 will not live on empty promises
> and pats on
> the back for PAST work. It needs committment to future work and future
> development. That is how MS
> reigns supreme it has the inside track; we are in constant catch mode. To
> prove my point, thanks to SUN
> and the band of 4 they all ship MS on most of their hardware because they
> did not embrace new technology
> in the form of X and thus are in danger of becoming INTEL clone shops. I
> shed only crocidile tears; they
> deserve their fate because they were not here in the front lines helping
> where it counted and now they are
> trying to take credit for something that never occurred? What sophistry.
>
Why would anyone want to contribute if they find our mailing lists
inhospitable, and failing to acknowledge the serious previous contributions
of their organization to the code base we all depend on?
>
> Over the years, Sun has made significant contributions to
> X code base: just go look at the copyrights. And they are a very active
> and valued contributor to Gnome currently (particularly Gnome 2).
>
> Gnome is not XFREE86. In case you did not know it, Xfree86 is not window
> manager specific. I think you should do so more homework. Perhaps you have
> forgotten the basics. Next you are going to tell me that old dowager X.org
> is the keeper of the standard....I hear violins, do you? Let us remember
> that there are many MANY I repeat MANY extensions that came out of XFREE86
> that were
> NOT NOT I repeat NOT underwritten by any company but by sheer hard work of
> that
> individual. That in itself is the strongest testament against your
> argument.
Homework? You fail to have done your home work. Please go look
at my Usenix invited talk of almost two years ago, where I make my opinions
of X.org *crystal* clear. Nothing in the intervening two years has
done anything but amplify that opinion.
Right now, I would argue that Gnome is *more* important to X's success
than the base window system is, though we are rapidly reaching the point
where we need to push the base window system to make further progress at
the higher levels.
Contributions at that level, to make any X desktop viable in the
general market, is incredibly important, and Sun has been in the
middle of making that happen. I wish my own company were making as large
contributions. I argue that those contributions are as important right now
as any code in XFree86.
Being hostile to potential contributors or companies that may pay
their salary is *not* the way for the XFree86 project to grow.
>
>
> So your comments are badly out of place, in my view, and I've
> watched/been involved in X from its inception.
>
> Past is not prologue it is simply history. That's great since you were with
> X but my concern is XFREE86 not X. X is dead. XFree86 has replaced it.
> X was good in its time but we've moved on since that point. Jim we are not
> on the same page, you are still
> reciting history & I talking now and the future. Let's move on.
>
Huh? Where do you think Keith Packard and I spend our time?
Keith all over the XFree86 server, with Render, fb, drivers, etc.;
me, as time has permitted through two rounds of surgery in 2001 and
other commitments, on the RandR extension.
>
> The way all can help is to help with the implementation.and get this all
> wrapped up.
>
>
> Well you can start with your own companies and undewriting the development
> by hiring XFREE86 developers. Where do I send my resume, Jim? Are you SUN,
> HP/CPQ and IBM hiring? If not in the end MS wins and we both lose and then
> past will become prologue.
>
>
What do you think I've been trying to do?
Few companies are hiring at the moment... The best description of the
computer industry is "maybe, just maybe, we've turned the corner on a
horrifying depression".
Compaq pays both Keith Packard's and my salary; hiring Keith was the first
hiring we were able to do in about 18 months. We both have recent code
in the XFree86 source pool. We both have much older code in the source pool.
- Jim
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