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i wish you would stop trying to compare this the native indians and such. jews have lived in palistine just as long as the arabs have. you know what i mean. the continued terrorist attacks the refusal to negotiate, the refusal to accept any kind of peace agreement, the continued support of corrupt officials like arafat, yes they have brought most of it on them selves. some of this is working as there has not been on suicide attack since march, arabs are admitting that the fence is supporting a terror free life and bringing prosperity to them as sharon is going to dismantle 17 settlements, israel has bent over backwards trying to stop this. again not a one of you will say if you have ever read the PLO charger, hamas's charter and how you reconcile the demand that israel cease to exist. that is the price that will be exacted for support of the PLO. that is what these so called peace groups don't acknowlege and i see you don't either. this is not australia no matter how hard you try and make it. the jews are not colonial conquerors but rather people who have lived there also. Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Yeah, the Palestinians really brought it all on themselves, didn't they? Kind of like the Australian Aborigines brought 200 years of genocidal terror on themselves by just being there; kind of like the Amerindians brought it all on themselves by just being there; kind of like the Ashkenazim brought it all on themselves by just being there ... Face it, most of the Israelis in the peace groups I know of and associate with, are not interested in the destruction of Israel - it's just that they don't consider dealing with Palestinians to entail that as a necessity. And the "Israel's right to exist"? Most states, when they recognize a new state, don't use that sort of terminology - they "recognize" the existence of such-and-such a state as being capable of entering into diplomatic relations, and that's that. Demanding a stateless individual recognize an ursurping state's "right to exist" is absurd and insulting - no wonder Arafat lost face with his people! As it is, I've found some interesting quotes from (relatively) early Zionists in what is now Israel: Ahad Ha'Am http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story642.html In 1891 Ahad Ha'Am opened many Jewish eyes to the fact the Palestine was not empty, but populated with its indigenous people when he wrote: "We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ..... But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains .... are not cultivated." (Righteous Victims, p. 42) [...] Ahad Ha'Am returned to the Arab problem ... in February 1914 ... and he also stated: "'[the Zionists] wax angry towards those who remind them that there is still another people in Eretz Yisrael that has been living there and does not intend at all to leave its place. In a future when this ILLUSION will have been torn from their hearts and they will look with open eyes upon the reality as it is, they will certainly understand how important this question is and how great our duty to work for its solution." (UN: The Origins And Evolution of Palestine Problem, section II) http://www.britshalom.org/background.htm Another forerunner and political inspiration of the IHUD group was H. M. Kalvaryski, whose death in 1938 marked the end of a productive and remarkable life in the early years of the Yishuv in Palestine. Kalvaryski states: "Any solution found and put into practice against the will of the Arabs endangers our future. We must recognise the kinship existing between the two branches of the Semitic race, and the duty of both parts to act in accordance with the principle: "that which it would not have the other branch do unto him, that it should not do unto the other." From this follow the principles of equality - parity - and of non-domination of either people by the other. ..." There comes a time when you have to get off the train - when it's racing towards a broken bridge ... And I appear to have made it my mission to help as many people as possible either get off the train before it goes over, or slow the train down so it can be safely stopped. Help is needed, but some people appear to be throwing petrol (and rocket fuel) in the boiler. Shalom Wesley Parish Quoting donnella whitacre : > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > ANNOUNCEMENT S and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > > i feel for the palistinians to hank, but i believe they bring most of > their own problems on themselves. most of these groups are not aware > that their activities would result in the distruction of israel but it > will. > the palsitinians can have all the national longings they want but not at > the expense of israel. they were given jordan, why don't they try and > collect on that bet instead of trying to take more from israel? > they are not ready for a country to rule, it will only become a more > potent form of terrorizm because then they will be a state and harder to > get rid of then. > has any one read the PLO charter, how can you feel for people who's > express purpose is to free palistine clear to the sea? they openly say > they want it all, is that not the distruction of israel? > how can you get around that? they are very open about how they feel, not > just a state but all of it. > they did the same thing in jordan in 1972, how can you feel for people > who were offered citizenship and all rights and turned it down because > arafat couldn't run every thing? he was offered the job of a prime > minster . that wasn't good enough for him. and nothing every will unless > he is in charge. > > > SHIN wrote: > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > ANNO UNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > > I don't know any peace group in Israel that wants to see itself > destroyed. > There is as much fragmentation in Israel as there is here; perhaps > more. > There is also a grass roots movement on the left that is very > supportive > of Palestinian rights. So am I. There are several ways to approach > this. > You can argue history and everyone has their own version and nothing > gets > done, or you can start with the understanding that Palestinians have > national aspirations which must be fulfilled and Israel has security > requirements which must be satisfied. > > And you can go round and round about this but the fact remains there is > an Israeli lobby and it is the neocons and it seems also very clear > from > what they have said and what has been written by them that policies are > influenced to be advantageous to the ruling elite in Israel and in the > U.S. > > Progressives, that is, the left have more in common with other > progressives in Israel and in the West than they have with the policies > of > the ruling classes and Nader is no fool and he says what we already > know. > > Hank > > "Sharpened hands are happy hands. "Brim the tinfall with mirthful bands" - A Deepness in the Sky, Vernor Vinge "I me. Shape middled me. 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