Right on. Roller was part of a couple of studies at Forrester Research and we did not fare too well. We understand why but we have faith in its potential and would like to see it taken to a next level. The main reason behind Roller lower ratings seem to be lack of vendor support as opposed to iUpload, MovableType, WordPress, Blogger, etc.
This is more than just Hibernate and Apache, like you said, it's more about what we can do in the future for our users by improving its support and development through more resources. Roller is definitely growing up! -Elias paksegu wrote: > I am not a Developer on the Roller team so I now my inputs are somehow > limited, however from a Developers standpoint it makes no sense replacing > hibernate just to graduate from Apache. On the other hand, from a business > standpoint it make absolute sense when you intend to create a business model > out of Rolller and distribute it commercially; you will come across a costly > barrier imposed by Hibernate GPL license unless your intention for Roller to > be used non commercial or proprietary environment. Having the flexibility of > Apache license creates more business opportunities which turns out great for > Roller in respect that we can have afford to get developers to commit to the > success of Roller > > > > Elias Torres <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Allen Gilliland wrote: >> The difference is partly a shift in my viewpoint and partly a shift in >> my intentions with each email. I never changed my opinion on my support >> for Hibernate, but what has changed as the discussion has grown is how >> willing I am to support the alternatives. >> >> First off, I should make clear that I don't speak for Sun, I speak for >> myself and to some degree on the behalf of the team I with that is >> responsible for running blogs.sun.com. My job is to run that website >> and the decisions I make with regards to Roller are always influenced by >> what I think is best for blogs.sun.com. >> >> I had originally been more open in my discussion about the various >> approaches that could be taken around the persistence implementation >> mostly because I had for one reason or another felt that folks on this >> list had already made up their mind to replace Hibernate despite my >> objections. Part of me thinks that's okay and I am not entirely opposed >> to an alternate approach, but as I thought about it more realistically >> it seems less and less like a good idea and that's where my last email >> came from. >> >> You said that Hibernate is a thorn in your side, so you obviously you >> favor replacing it, but we don't have that problem and AFAIK there >> aren't any other Roller users who have complained about that. If we >> don't have a problem with using Hibernate when why should we want to >> replace it? I don't think there are any benefits at all for us to >> replace Hibernate. > > That might definitely be true. The benefits to most Roller > users/installers by us changing could at best be none, if anything it > will be growing pains all over. > >> I am always open to options, but you have to tell me why we should >> replace Hibernate? If the only reason is because of an issue with >> apache licensing then that's not good enough in my opinion. > > IBM's reason is simply a license issue and so is Apache's reason. If I > were to speak on the matter personally, this whole issue definitely > stinks. However, as an IBM employee I have to comply with the company's > policies and we cannot afford to be involved in licensing lawsuits and > that's more than good enough for me in my opinion. > > I'm in no way advocating that we make our users deal with the pain and > that's why I want to entertain the pluggable option. Dave's OpenJPA > suggestion sounds plausible (as long as there's a Apache-licensed JPA > implementation that's been proven or simply works). > > I think we have heard enough opinions from many in the community. Should > we try to vote on the issue and decide? The options are many all > hovering on things from the set keeping hibernate, staying at apache, > Sun leaving roller, IBM leaving roller, making it pluggable, replace the > ORM, rewrite it in Ruby, Lisp, ML and any combination of any of these. > > I often share at IBM that Roller Team is 100% behind solving the > Hibernate issue by satisfying Apache Licensing requirements and every > month or so, we seem to waver at our initial commitment to make Roller > an Apache project all for an ORM library. We are currently at a crucial > moment in our decision to continue working with the Roller project and > some clarification in the matter would help us to decide whether or not > we would get more involved with Roller than we are today. > > What do you guys think? Can we try to make a decision? I'm all for what > is best for the today's and future Roller users. > > -Elias > >> -- Allen >> >> >> Elias Torres wrote: >>> Allen, >>> >>> I note a stark difference between this email and one of the first emails >>> from you in the thread: >>> >>> """ >>> assuming we agree that we are only focusing on implementing one of the >>> options, we then need to decide which one. just so it's known, i think >>> it's entirely lame that we are getting rid of Hibernate over a silly >>> licensing issue. as a large roller customer i consider it more of a >>> pain than a benefit to have to replace the backend. regardless of that >>> fact, it appears that's what everyone wants to do, so i consider >>> Hibernate to no longer be an option. that leaves JDO and JPA as you >>> mentioned, and i don't really have any preference between the two. """ >>> >>> Now it seems that the *only* option for you (is it for Sun, too?) is >>> Hibernate. Is that correct? Why the change of opinion? If I may ask. >>> >>> -Elias >>> >>> Allen Gilliland wrote: >>>> I still want more information about the soft vs. hard dependency issue >>>> WRT Hibernate being part of the project, but whatever the outcome of >>>> that is doesn't change the fact that I continue to support Hibernate as >>>> our implementation. >>>> >>>> I should also say that depending on how this works out this is something >>>> that could put us (blogs.sun.com) at odds with the community and >>>> encourage us to go our own direction. >>>> >>>> My only concern is for my installation of Roller at blogs.sun.com and as >>>> I've said before, switching to something other than Hibernate is only >>>> going to create problems for us. As far as I'm concerned Hibernate >>>> still offers the best option as the persistence implementation and since >>>> the licensing issue does not affect us specifically then I don't see any >>>> reason to mess with it. At some point we will likely be willing to try >>>> a JPA implementation, but we are not really interested in being one of >>>> the first adopters, so that won't happen for a while. >>>> >>>> Depending on the outcome of the soft vs. hard dependency issue and >>>> whether or not apache will provide us some potential way to continue >>>> using Hibernate legally is what will determine my final point of view. >>>> >>>> -- Allen >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave Johnson wrote: >>>>> On 8/16/06, Anil Gangolli wrote: >>>>>> I support Elias's option #2 with some concessions to #1. >>>>> I feel about the same way. >>>>> >>>>> On the question of "who here wants to replace Hibernate?" >>>>> >>>>> Hibernate's LGPL licensing is incompatible with Apache policy and >>>>> there exists a set of contributors who are willing and able to provide >>>>> an alternative backend impl. I'm a member of that set. If we create an >>>>> alternative, it works well and we've got consensus then we'll ship it >>>>> with Roller. Do we have to do this before we graduate? I sure as hell >>>>> hope not. >>>>> >>>>> On the question of "which ORM should we choose?" >>>>> >>>>> I definitely believe we should ship one ORM with Roller and the Roller >>>>> project should not do anything to promote, document or support the >>>>> idea of users plugging in alternative ORMs. >>>>> >>>>> Personally I favor JPA because 1) there will be multiple high-quality >>>>> implementatons (some at Apache) and 2) Hibernate is one of the >>>>> implementations. So we'd ship OpenJPA or something similar, but folks >>>>> who *really* want to continue using Hibernate can figure out on their >>>>> own how to configure Roller to use Hibernate's JPA implementation. >>>>> >>>>> On the question of "Data Mapper good or bad?" >>>>> >>>>> I'm +1 on Data Mapper. The Data Mapper pattern allows us to abstract >>>>> ORM queries, just as our Persistence Strategy allows us to abstract >>>>> ORM load/save operations. We'll have a complete persistence >>>>> abstraction, something I've always wanted to see. The ability to >>>>> compare JPA, JDO and possibly other ORMs seems like a key feature >>>>> right now. Having named and externalized queries is nice too. >>>>> >>>>> - Dave > > > > Ransford Segu-Baffoe > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.noqturnalmediasystems.com/ > http://www.noqturnalmediasystems.com/Serenade/ > https://serenade.dev.java.net/ > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
