One thing you might think about is to GET YOUR OWN FORUM. In case you didn't notice - this is ROSE forum - NOT HOORA or HAT forum. That will reduce the cr*p I get via email. Thanks for your understanding. Thanks. > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 3:49 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: (ROSE) HOORA methodology > > > >Johan, > >I did a quick overview of the HOORA process on your website and did not see >any process for a persistence model (Data Model). Is that a deliberate >oversight? >Even RUP recognizes persistence modeling as a distinct activity. > >Thanks, >Abby >========================== >Johan Galle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Les, > > > > The bug you talk about, considering requirements entering, has been > > corrected. > > > > And yes, I believe in HAT, because I have seen so many teams choosing >for > > "UML" who really needed more guidance than an editor supporting each of >the > > UML diagram types. > > > > As for the "inflexible process", I would like you to elaborate on this. >The > > goal of HAT is to provide process ingredients, such as the static and > > dynamic model concepts. UML gives you the freedom to draw a class >diagram > > anytime you like. And so does HAT. But users need a technique to obtain >a > > consolidated view, summarizing all information on various class >diagrams. > > The same thing applies for sequence diagrams. Sequence diagrams are a >nice > > technique, but you concentrate on one particular scenario, and you risk >not > > being in synch with the other sequence diagrams. So, you should be able >to > > summarize them into a dynamic model diagram, ... > > > > Requirements ? Right now, I often get the impression that UML books seem >to > > imply that requirements analysis is just about drawing diagrams. How >about > > analysis, requirements, dictionary terms, ... > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Johan > > ========================================= > > Johan Galle > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > HOORA, the practical approach to UML: http://www.hoora.org > > ========================================= > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 21:49 > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: (ROSE) Rose vs Select vs Together vs HAT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Johan, > > > > > > You really believe in this HAT then :-) > > > > > > Actually, I downloaded the evaluation version and took it > > > with on a week's > > > conference. I'm sorry to say, that after 3 days of > > > experimenting, I do not > > > have your faith in HAT. > > > > > > 1) The process implemented by the tool is too inflexible. I'm > > > not saying > > > that HOORA is not a good process, it's just that I have > > > certain artifacts > > > in my process that HAT did not allow me to implement. > > > > > > 2) Way TOO many bugs. Anyone would think that Rational had > > > had a hand in > > > the coding :-) It would not allow me to enter my requirements > > > through the > > > requirements management window and if I tried to force them > > > into the tool > > > via the tree view pane HAT would go down. > > > > > > The idea is good, I will have another look in the future if > > > you can assure > > > me that the bugs have been ironed out. > > > > > > Les. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Johan Galle > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: > > > "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent by: cc: > > > > > > owner-rose_forum@ra Subject: > > > RE: (ROSE) Rose vs Select vs Together vs HAT > > > tional.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 04/09/2001 03:38 AM > > > > > > Please respond to > > > > > > Johan Galle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is my major requirement for a UML tool: > > > > > > A UML TOOL HAS TO SUPPORT THE MODELING PROCESS > > > > > > Tool developers have misunderstood the UML standardization in their > > > conclusion: > > > > > > ALL THAT A UML TOOL HAS TO DO IS TO SUPPORT THE UML NOTATION > > > > > > UML tools should not be just a collection of diagram editors. > > > > > > We defined a "set of process ingredients", which is far more > > > concrete than > > > "here are the diagrams", and which is also far more concrete than the > > > over-generic RUP. We validated this in work we did for the > > > European Space > > > Agency. These ingredients are still flexible enough to cover > > > many needs. > > > > > > These are some of the ingredients we introduce: > > > Requirements, Terms dictionary, automatically generated > > > diagrams that have > > > a > > > pre-defined meaning (static model, dynamic model, package > > > summary), tracing > > > requirements to all kinds of model elements, distributing the > > > requirements > > > linked to use cases X to the classes introduced in sequence > > > diagrams under > > > use case X, hierarchy rules and metrics, ... > > > > > > The static model of class X is a class diagram showing this > > > class X and > > > all > > > the classes statically related to X. The dynamic model of > > > class X shows > > > class X and all the classes (dynamically) interacting with it > > > (based on > > > sequence and collaboration diagram information). The package summary > > > diagram > > > of package X shows package X and all the packages it depends > > > upon. The good > > > thing is that all these diagrams are automatically kept consistent. > > > > > > With these ingredients, it is easier to create your own "process". > > > > > > Take a look at http://www.hoora.org or browse through this > > > step by step > > > example: http://www.hoora.org/hoora_example.htm. > > > > > > I feel that the whole UML standardization has led to far less > > > emphasis on > > > the process. And the support you get from "UML tools" is > > > really minimal. > > > CASE tools are supposed to be more than drawing tools. Not > > > giving enough > > > support in order to still cover a large enough user base is > > > wrong (I hope). > > > > > > For this HOORA process, we developed a tool, HAT (HOORA > > > Analysis Tool). > > > (And > > > yes, we can read .mdl files) > > > > > > And I would like to add HAT to your list of tools. > > > > > > Regards, > > > ========================================= > > > Johan Galle > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > HOORA, the practical approach to UML: http://www.hoora.org > > > ========================================= > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Damian Dixon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 10:17 > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: (ROSE) Rose vs Select vs Together > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > While the list is discussing Together, could I suggest a > > > > broader discussion. > > > > > > > > I am currently looking at a replacement for Rose and I am > > > > looking at both Together and Select and would like to know > > > > peoples experience of Select as well :> > > > > > > > > One of the main criteria I am looking for is the ability > > > > of a tool to read Rose mdl files. We just have too many > > > > on going Rose designs. > > > > > > > > I am also looking for: > > > > > > > > o Stable design tool (Rose 2001 is too buggy, Rose has cost > > > > my project this year ~£7000 in lost time, we have had to > > > > go back to 2000e). > > > > o Better way for documenting (being able to use more then > > > > just text, and to be able to specify additional sections > > > > within a textual description). > > > > o Better documentation generation (yes we have SODA, but I've > > > > gone for modifying the reportgen_plus script). > > > > o Workable reverse engineering. > > > > o Ability to generate code from state diagrams. > > > > o Easier to use GUI (less mouse clicks and more sensible layout). > > > > o Better team support. > > > > > > > > Please don't limit your comments to Rose, Select and Together > > > > as I know there are other tools out there as well. > > > > > > > > I look forward to hearing peoples comments and suggestions... > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Damian > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------- > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Damian Dixon, BSc(Hons), BSc(Hons), FRGS > > > > ODS Design Authority > > > > Senior Software Development Engineer > > > > TENET Defence Ltd. > > > > North Heath Lane > > > > Horsham > > > > West Sussex > > > > RH12 5UX > > > > > > > > Tel: +44 1403 273173 > > > > Fax: +44 1403 273123 > > > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://www.tenetdefence.com > > > > > > > > ************************************************************** > > > > ************** > > > > *** > > > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the > > > > individual sender, except where the sender specifically > > > > states them to be the views of TENET Defence Ltd. > > > > > > > > This email and any attachments may contain confidential information > > > > and/or copyright material. It is intended for the use of the > > > > addressee > > > > only and any unauthorised use may be unlawful. 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