+1 BTW, here is the URL for his talk:
http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/ It is back in the webrat days (pre-capybara). And the World() method is simpler nowadays. Cheers, Ed Ed Howland http://greenprogrammer.wordpress.com http://twitter.com/ed_howland On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:12 PM, John Goodsen <jgood...@radsoft.com> wrote: > Watch Ben Mabey's slides and talk at Ruby Conf on outside in development > with Cucumber. It positions rspec and cucumber properly > > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Joseph Wilk <j...@josephwilk.net> wrote: >> >> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:05 PM, David Chelimsky <dchelim...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > On Apr 20, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Mike Sassak wrote: >> > >> >> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Ed Howland <ed.howl...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >>> Please forgive the x-post. >> >>> >> >>> I just got back from the Great Lakes Ruby Bash. They had several good >> >>> presentations, two specific to BDD and Cucumber. I also talked to >> >>> several CEOs and devs afterwards, and the overall takeaway I gathered >> >>> was a shift to less RSpec and more Cucumber. Some people even claimed >> >>> a 90/10 split (cukes/specs) on current projects. >> >>> >> >>> This was surorising to me and not at all how I worked up to this >> >>> point. I was more 20/80. I usually cuked a feature, then spec'ed the >> >>> code to make the cuke work. Each release had some new features and >> >>> specs for all the underlying code. Apparently, the feeling is that you >> >>> should do all your main thrusts with Cucumber and use RSpec for edge >> >>> cases. The theory is that you can change out all the underlying code >> >>> and the cukes still pass. >> >>> >> >>> What is the communities consensus on this? >> >>> >> >> >> >> Hi Ed, >> >> >> >> I was also at the GLRB, and was a bit aghast at the claim that you >> >> should have a 90/10 split between cukes and rspec. In my experience, >> >> favoring Cucumber so heavily invites developing code that behaves >> >> correctly, but is messy and difficult to change. I would go so far as >> >> to claim there is a positive correlation between over-reliance on >> >> Cucumber features and rampant violations of the SOLID principles. >> >> Cucumber simply doesn't excel at enforcing simple, testable contracts >> >> between the objects in your code base the way RSpec does. The result >> >> is that your code is hard to refactor and change, which from the >> >> developer's point of view is practically the whole reason to maintain >> >> a good test suite in the first place. This isn't the whole of the >> >> story by any means, but I think it's close to the place to start. >> >> First up Rspec and Cucumber are just tools, they can be used in many >> ways. So this answer belies my personal usage of these tools. >> >> A big issue for me is scaling tests. Cucumber tests tend to be >> end-to-end tests so they cut through the whole application stack. This >> is great in terms of freeing you up to refactor the heck out of your >> code without having to rewrite lots of tests. But end-to-end tests are >> slow, now this can be ok if you working on a small project. In smaller >> projects I've worked on I've only used Cukes. In others I've only >> tended to drop down to Rspec (which I very much use as a specing/unit >> testing tool) when there is complexity, I feel the feedback loop is >> not fast enough or I need to explore the design more. >> >> If however you are working on an application thats long lived or lives >> in a domain where you're dealing with asynchronous issues (such as >> javascript or evented systems) I've seen people very quickly hit 1 >> hour + test build time. Primarily because they have such a heavy focus >> on Cucumber or end-to-end tests. So one direction to help avoid this >> is to exploring a few good and bad paths with cucumber but having more >> detailed spec coverage. This would help you manage better test build >> times. >> >> The other option is to not worry about heavy Cukes usage and throw >> lots of hardware at the scaling problem. Ok for some, but it does >> end-up costing lots. >> >> One other point is that Cucumber for me is part of a process about >> facilitating conversations with non techs. So as a developer its not >> always a question of how many Cukes do I think I should have. Its a >> question of how much does the stakeholders who I'm writing the >> software want. Do they want to edit and write the cukes with us? Will >> they go back and reference the cukes in the future? >> >> So in conclusion my split on Cucumbers/Rspecs really depends on the >> context of the project. An important factor to think about is scaling >> when you only use end-to-end tests. >> >> Joseph Wilk >> http://blog.josephwilk.net >> http://www.songkick.com >> +44 (0)7812 816431 >> >> >> >> >> $0.02 >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> P.S. Hello RSpec Group! What's the etiquette here for cross-posting? >> > >> > Etiquette, schmetiquette :) >> > >> > I'd say, in the interest of keeping the thread in one place, post to the >> > rspec list w/ a link to this thread in the cuke group and invite folks to >> > join the convo. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > David >> > >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> Ed >> >>> >> >>> Ed Howland >> >>> http://greenprogrammer.wordpress.com >> >>> http://twitter.com/ed_howland >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>> Groups "Cukes" group. >> >>> To post to this group, send email to cu...@googlegroups.com. >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>> cukes+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >>> For more options, visit this group at >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/cukes?hl=en. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups "Cukes" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to cu...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> cukes+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/cukes?hl=en. >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups "Cukes" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to cu...@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > cukes+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/cukes?hl=en. >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> rspec-users mailing list >> rspec-users@rubyforge.org >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users > > > > -- > John Goodsen RADSoft / Better Software Faster > jgood...@radsoft.com Lean/Agile/XP/Scrum Coaching and Training > http://www.radsoft.com Ruby on Rails and Java Solutions > > _______________________________________________ > rspec-users mailing list > rspec-users@rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users > _______________________________________________ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
