Gentlemen..
It has been interesting listening, once again, to all the conversation about Lionel. It seems that every time Lionel does or says something (anything) half the world approves and the other half complains without even seeing or touching the product in question. It is truly dismaying to see all of this once again, but human nature is strange. Not wanting to be left out of the discussion, I'd like to add my comments here. Enjoy them or delete them. Not sure I really care, but giving it some thought might just be helpful to all of us. Cheers..Ed L. (the real me!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- these locomotives are also available with scale wheels, Kadee brackets will be included,(just like the U33C's) and will be able to be run on AC, TMCC, DC or DCC without modification. Last I heard they are due out in February. Rich G(ajnak) As usual, Rich's information is accurate and correct. The SD-70s are either in a container or about to be loaded into a container at this time. Figure 6-8 weeks until they reach the dealers/consumers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- Speaking of Lionel, I am wondering how many folks out there might be interested in a Lionel Y-3 2-8-8-2 converted to scale operation? Any thoughts about this? EDWARD MICHAEL LOIZEAUX (formerly "Ed L.") After posing this hypothetical question, most of the responses (both on and off list) were something along the lines of: "It will never happen. Lionel will not do that." Very few folks were willing to carefully read the actual question which was: "would you be interested if it was available?" Posing a marketing survey type question like this appears to be a total waste of time since so many folks have preconceived ideas and refuse to reconsider them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- the Y3's aren't DCC compatible, so you'd have to gut/sell the electronics. I'm hoping if Lionel's scale wheel diesel sales are good, scale wheel steam would follow. Lionel is doing more to attract the S Scale person more than it does to attract the 2-rail O Scale person, so you never know... Rich G(ajnak Here is another marketing survey question: "Suppose it became possible to upgrade the software in the Lionel Y-3 so that it was operational on both DC and DCC. How many folks would be interested in that?" Try answering the question instead of stating an opinion that it will never ever happen. Are you reading between the lines here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- If it had scale wheels and one could get a KD coupler on the tender, it would be tempting. Alex Binkley Alex...Perhaps you will be tempted someday. Can I mark you down as "YES"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- The driver flanges don't look that bad, as if they might work on Code 100 rail. boB Nicholson Driver flanges sure are small compared to the tender wheels. Good observation there boB. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Lionel tends to be delightfully inconsistent on flange depth on Flyer wheelsets. Driver flanges tend to be a little less deep (not by much) than the other wheelset. Rich G(ajnak) Again, Rich hit the nail on the head. Careful examination will show that some Lionel steam locos have different flange sizes on the tender wheels, the drivers and the pilot/trailing trucks. Lionel is now aware of this. I wonder what the future will bring? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------- Lionel steam is harder, but the trend line from Lionel is encouraging. "S"miles...Ed Loizeaux Here is a comment from Mr. Optimistic who thinks Lionel is steadily moving in the right direction. Mountains do not move overnight, but in small increments. Such is the case with Lionel. Will gripes and complaints move them faster? Will supportive and helpful communication with the Marketing Department help more? To me, the answer is obvious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- Eeeck! Not those damn swiveling pilots. What is this O-27? Chris Borgmeyer This comment makes the assumption that all Lionel products are the same, that Lionel will not learn from the past and that Lionel will never make a product suitable for a scale modeler. And Mr. Borgmeyer is not the only one making these assumptions. It seems to me that actually looking at the product FIRST before making negative comments would be a new and novel idea. To clarify the product: The pilot/coupler design is totally different from the U33. The huge AF coupler swings from side to side and is lightly sprung. The pilot also swings from side to side, but is sprung with more stiffness. The coupler is not mounted to the trucks and does not move merely because the truck turns. The coupler is not mounted to the pilot. Yes, the pilot is disconnected from the coupler. Thus, on sharp AF curves, both the coupler and the pilot will swing. On more gradual scale curves, the coupler can swing a small amount, but the pilot does not need to swing at all. Now is that a creative approach or what? And, for icing on the cake, the product manual for the SD-70 clearly explains how to fasten the pilot to the frame to eliminate all swinging action. The parts bag even contains the screws and bushings needed to accomplish this. What the heck more do you guys want? How about if we agree that negative comments about any model, Lionel or otherwise, should be made only by those who have actually seen and run the model? Interesting proposal, right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ The pilots are independent of the trucks. They will not move if nothing is coupled to the locomotive. The will be a provision to permanently attach the pilots to the frame. Sometimes, I wonder why I bother... You guys can make discoveries on your own from now on. I've had it with the closed minds, here. Rich G(ajnak) As usual, Rich seems to pull the correct information out of his magic hat. Thanks Rich! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- Wait on MTH, if you want it closer to true scale Alan Lambert Another set of assumptions here. Nothing has yet arrived from MTH and this fellow already knows it will be closer to scale than Lionel products which have not yet arrived either. Fascinating how neither products are yet in the hands of consumers, but all this knowledge is stated with absolute certainty. Amazing... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Sometimes the engineering does get more creative and better. Ben Trousdale At least Ben recognizes that a company's products can improve with time and experience. Thanks Ben for having an open mind regarding Lionel's attempt to better serve the scale guys. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- The pilot mechanism was discussed on the S-Scale side of the O Gauge Trains forum. Rich G(ajnak) My observations lead me to believe that Rich knows what he is talking about. Not one bum steer yet. I am glad that he serves as our liaison to the O gauge list. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------- MTH knows what we want, Alan Lambert I have not yet seen any S scale product from MTH. I am reluctant to comment about MTH without having seen something tangible. The assumption that MTH products will be exactly like SHS products might be true - or it might not be true. Does anyone have any inside information? Not opinions, but genuine information. Magazine articles do not count. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Lionel without our input has no clue as to whether scale wheels will be worth their trouble even though they show them being available on the SD70ACe loco. Alan Lambert Please tell me what clues Lionel has or does not have? How do you know what is in their minds? One response from the Facebook clerk pertaining to scale wheels should not be used to judge the entire company. We have been down this path before. Need we trod it again? The catalog shows it. The dealers are taking orders. The dealers are confirming the orders. Perhaps the Facebook clerk is incorrect - like before. My opinion is that the Facebook clerk is out of synch with the rest of the company. The manager of that department should be informed of this. Have you written to him yet? The scale wheels are being made or have been made. There is an internal discussion going on whether to offer them as a separate and distinct SKU available from the Customer Service Department. Whether they are built into/onto the SD70 or are separate items is not clear (to me) at this time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this is a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing, which is a problem with most large companies and organizations. - Earl Henry, Nashville I think Earl sees the issue much the same as me. Perhaps he can write to Lionel and inform them of this repeating pattern of poor communication. Better to solve the real problem rather than just griping about the symptoms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------- I guess the question for me is do I buy Lionel or MTH? Jim Kindraka Good question since MTH has also announced an SD70. Which will be better? Nobody knows. Waiting until both are available for inspection is one option. But what if the Lionel SD70 is sold out by the time the MTH SD70 is in the hands of consumers? Wish I had an answer for Jim's question. The future cannot be predicted... If the Lionel product looks good, why not just buy it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- The Y-3 is also a non-starter; sorry just doesn't measure up to the brass fleet. Jim Kindraka True, but then again a $1,000 articulated might be very appealing to some folks vs a $3,000 brass import. Perfection costs serious money. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- I don't see American Models coming out with anything completely new in the near future. Bill Lane The most recent RTR loco was the SHS 2-8-0 which was quite some time ago - years? Outside of some resin kits from Jim King and some RRM brass imports, S scale has not seen any new mass produced locos in a v-e-r-y l-o-n-g time. Given the economy and the outlook for the future, I tend to be pessimistic about the DPH SD45 loco and others as well. Maybe the SD45 will show up at O SCALE WEST next month? At the last showing, it was only a few detail parts short of being completed, but that was a full year ago. Be interesting to see what the status is this year. I suspect all this Lionel talk takes place mostly because nothing else is happening anywhere. Thus, we get consumed with Lionel Fever because there is no other activity in the mass produced arena. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- Ironically the anti-Lionel sentiment for this list for years has just been put through a blender Bill Lane It is hard to argue we should ignore Lionel (or MTH, for that matter) because it is not "good enough". It is the only thing coming down the pipeline right now and we should be talking about how to improve it via superdetailing, etc. Kindraka had it right - are we modelers or are we talkers/complainers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- if MTH comes out with the F-3 and it can have scale wheels It will be my first scale wheel loco. Alan Lambert If you want a scale loco, why not buy a Lionel or AM diesel right now? No need to wait or something else. Just curious. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- I think that Lionel's renewed interest in S scale is a very good thing and hope that we can encourage and support them. Brian Jackson Sounds good to me! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ a bigger concern is that we're seeing what seems to be a lot of quality-control issues with these models. what I don't want is to spend many 100's of $ on something that is faulty Mark Mugnai I am not sure if this is a Lionel issue or not. Lionel does offer a warranty. Our S hobbyist buddies usually will try to make things right because they are a good bunch of guys, but without a binding warranty policy. While I do not have a large fleet of Lionel trains, are there a lot of QC issues with them? I just have not heard of any that are related to the scale models. Perhaps QC problems with the AF models - I just do not know. Facts or opinions or rumors or what..?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- END OF LIONEL EPISTLE. How many read this to the end? Just curious..Ed L. (the real me)
