On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 4:14 PM Tobias Diez <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> What about a completely different approach: Instead of annotating the 
> doctests, simply ignore test blocks that fail due to a thrown import error 
> (or missing feature error) of a package that is not installed in the 
> modularized test environment?

How do you see the doctest framework  distinguishing "real" import
errors from the ones caused by modularisation?



> That might hide some edge cases, but would in total be a less intrusive way 
> to handle things.
>
> At the very least, I would propose to hide these optional tags from the 
> generated docs.
> On Monday, 12 June 2023 at 16:50:11 UTC+8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 1:35 AM 'Travis Scrimshaw' via sage-devel
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Matthias,
>> >
>> > Happy to see that you are curious regarding the modularization project, 
>> > but I don't think it's a good approach to start this discussion with 
>> > claims that sound authoritative ("nobody will actually maintain", "does 
>> > not scale", "nearly all end users", etc.) and a policy proposal.
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes, you're right. I do not have any hard analytic data to support what 
>> > users want and are doing, and that observation is based solely on my years 
>> > of experience with working with Sage, going to and speaking at SageDays, 
>> > and convincing people to start using Sage. However, there is clear 
>> > evidence that the current approach is not scaling by the amount of work 
>> > that is going in and frequent updates/fixed that is needed to be done. 
>> > Currently, only you are the one doing this.
>>
>> What exactly is not scaling? "Vendor everything" approach abandoned ~9
>> years ago obviously didn't scale.
>> I think we're not unvendoring things aggressively enough, and that's
>> what we quarrel with Matthias about.
>>
>> I'm about to start a round of discussions here to lead to a vote to
>> remove vendored gcc and gfortran.
>> We also should be getting rid of Sage-nonspecific things such as
>> vendored Python (with the needed dependencies such as openssl),
>> and vendored Jupyter and its huge slew of its dependencies (for the
>> latter Matthias is on board, I think).
>>
>> It's also not correct that modularisation is currently only done by
>> Matthias. E.g. most recently I worked on unvendoring of Maxima.
>> I worked on doing some abstract classes for parts of sage.coding, I
>> worked on spinning out prime counting stuff into a separate
>> pip-installable module (that was in 2021, though), etc.
>>
>> The interdependecies of parts of Sage library on each other are
>> decreasing, and this is certainly a big deal in terms of
>> updating/fixing
>> things. (Not importing from sage.all in the library is a big deal).
>>
>> Dima
>>
>>
>> Some of that is the lack of discussion (which I would like to have
>> seen given the large scale nature of this change, which is implicitly
>> setting policy by default). You can disagree with my conclusions and
>> proposal, but I want to actually talk about that rather than having
>> dismissive comments. Can you provide any specific counterpoints and
>> your expectations? What you posted on the other thread does not
>> address any of these.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Travis
>> >
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