Howdy,

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 3:57 AM, William Stein<[email protected]> wrote:
> I have to add that not only is Sage very low on the above list, Sage
> got the *most* "no" votes from the 30 people who actually voted (tying
> only with Networkx), according to the table here:
>
>    http://fdoperez.blogspot.com/2009/06/scipy-advanced-tutorials-results.html
>
> I don't know if I should interpret this as:
>
>   (1) Sage doesn't at all provide what is needed by "the scipy community", or
>
>   (2) The scipy community has a strong opinion that in fact sage is
> worse than useless.

I have to say that *personally* I was both surprised and disappointed
at the low ranking Sage got, since I was hoping to have a Sage
tutorial again this year.  On every talk I give on scientific
computing with Python I always make a  point of highlighting Sage, I
use it myself and I think it's a key asset of a larger ecosystem of
open source tools for scientific computing based on Python.  But all
I'm doing here is reporting the numbers as they came: the only change
I made to the raw Doodle data was to remove the voters' names and
transpose the table for readability (Doodle returns each topic as a
column, which is annoying to read).

> It might also be relevant that Sage, Hermes, and Networkx (in the
> bottom 4) are all GPL'd, but the top 7 packages by interest in the
> list above are all non-GPL (BSD or MIT licensed).   It may just be
> that whoever voted are mostly people who believe they can't use GPL'd
> code.
>
> Anyway, I find Fernando's justification for the ranking "the ranking
> roughly follows the generality of the tools" to be an unsatisfactory
> explanation or summary of the data.  Rather, perhaps the ranking
> roughly follows the restrictiveness of the *license*.

That was just a hand-wavy argument, since ultimately I can't know why
people voted the way they did.  I should note that Networkx is LGPL,
not GPL; see 
https://networkx.lanl.gov/trac/browser/networkx/trunk/doc/GNU_LGPL.txt
and https://networkx.lanl.gov/trac/browser/networkx/trunk/networkx/release.py,
which specifically contains

1       """Release data for NetworkX."""
2       
3       #    Copyright (C) 2004-2008 by
4       #    Aric Hagberg <[email protected]>
5       #    Dan Schult <[email protected]>
6       #    Pieter Swart <[email protected]>
7       #    Distributed under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public 
License
8       #    http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html

So the bottommost project (which as I mentioned, I also love and
wanted to get a tutorial on) is not GPL.

I should have definitely qualified my 'generality' comment by pointing
that Sage was the outlier in this (weak) pattern: while finite
elements, time series and graph theory are specialized topics, sage is
a super-broad-spectrum tool, so it definitely doesn't fit that trend.
That point was clear to me and did surprise me very much, I just
failed to mention it last night (I wrote that blog post rather in a
hurry, tired, and was mostly annoyed at blogspot's mangling of the
table html).

I sort of doubt that most people would make their decisions on what
tools to learn based on licenses, or at least I hope that's the case.
 But perhaps I'm wrong on that and just naive...

In any case, all I can do is report back the results as they came.  In
this case, I'm just the messenger :)

Cheers,

f

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