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Today's Topics:
1. RE: Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan (Knudsen, Toke)
2. Re: Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan (Sai)
3. RE: Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan (Knudsen, Toke)
4. Re: Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan (Sai)
5. Quiz # 6, question 4, and tanimna (Vis Tekumalla)
6. Skt quizz # 6 question 4 queries by Mr.Sai (peekayar)
7. skt quizz # 6, question 7, Mr. Sai's observations. (peekayar)
8. RE: Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan (Knudsen, Toke)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:06:06 -0500
From: "Knudsen, Toke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Sanskrit] Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan
To: "Sai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Sai wrote:
> I want to understand this combination of dvitIya (madhuvrataM - objective)
> and tR^itIya (antareNa) better. When does a dvitIya word associate with a
> tR^itIya word? Shouldn't an object associate with a verb as opposed to a
> noun?
Here antareNa does not function as an instrumental of antara, but is an indeclinable
that takes an accusative (the declinable being derived from antara, of course). The
Monier-Williams dictionary has an entry to this effect.
With all best wishes,
Toke
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:12:43 -0700
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan
To: "Knudsen, Toke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Pardon my ignorance.
I am not familiar with the words accusative and (in)declinable.
What do they mean? Can you give examples? What are their sanskrit
equivalents in terms of numbers?
- Sai.
Knudsen, Toke uvaacha:
> Sai wrote:
>
> > I want to understand this combination of dvitIya (madhuvrataM - objective)
> > and tR^itIya (antareNa) better. When does a dvitIya word associate with a
> > tR^itIya word? Shouldn't an object associate with a verb as opposed to a
> > noun?
>
> Here antareNa does not function as an instrumental of antara, but is an indeclinable
> that takes an accusative (the declinable being derived from antara, of course). The
> Monier-Williams dictionary has an entry to this effect.
>
> With all best wishes,
> Toke
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:36:48 -0500
From: "Knudsen, Toke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Sanskrit] Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan
To: "Sai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Dear Sai,
> I am not familiar with the words accusative and (in)declinable. What do they
> mean? Can you give examples? What are their sanskrit equivalents in terms of
> numbers?
An accusative is a dvitIya word. The Sanskrit term for an indeclinable is avyaya.
The form of an avyaya does not undergo any changes in a grammatical construction.
avyayas are often formed by putting another word in the dvitIya form (accusative) or
some other case. An example: nitya is an adjective meaning 'continual' (there are
other meanings). nityam is the dvitIya ekavacana form of this word, but nityam can
also function as an avyaya and is then equivalent to an adverb and means 'always.'
Instead of dvitIya, avyayas are also sometimes formed from the tRtIya form of a word.
For example, dakSiNena does not mean 'by means of south' or 'accompanied by south,' by
'southwards, to the south.'
In our case we have the word antara. One meaning of this is 'different from.' Then
an avyaya is formed by freezing the word in the tRtIya form: antareNa. In a
grammatical formation, the avyaya always take the form antareNa; it never changes.
This avyaya functions as an adverb and is taken with a word in the dvitIya form. The
meaning is then 'except for.' In the verse in question, the dvitIya form is
madhuvratam, hence the meaning is 'except for a bee.'
I hope that this helps.
With all best wishes,
Toke
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:58:00 -0700
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan
To: "Knudsen, Toke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> dakSiNena does not mean 'by means of south' or 'accompanied by south,' by
> 'southwards, to the south.'
Thanks. Your reply makes a lot of sense. Could you give me an
example usage where dakShiNena is in its avyaya form? I can't think of
any.
Also, a follow-up question. How is it decided that a particular word is
in avyaya form or not in a sanskrit sentence?
Is the list of avyayas fixed by Panini or are there rules to decide
that?
- Sai.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:50:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Vis Tekumalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Quiz # 6, question 4, and tanimna
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The discussion on question no. 4 was very enlightening for me. As for Sai's other
question on the meaning of "tanimna," all I can say is I found a very close word
meaning the same thing, i.e., "slenderness," thinness" in the Apte online dictionary.
The word is - "taniman." The link is given below:
http://aa2411s.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~tjun/sktdic/cgi-bin/dic-srch.cgi
Could it be Bhartrihari actually used "taniman" instead of "tanimna," and what I read
is a typo,
or
"tanimna" a poetic variation of "taniman,"
or
is Apte in error?
...Vis Tekumalla
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 00:19:39 -0800 (PST)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Skt quizz # 6 question 4 queries by Mr.Sai
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I am giving Mr.Sai's queries and my replies to them
in the attachment.
Regards.
P.K.Ramakrishnan
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:57:09 -0700
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> a.ntareNa = except or other than
>
> madhuvrata.m = that lives only on honey i.e. the bee.
This english translation seems too vague to me. It doesn't help us
understand how to think in the sanskrit language.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I want to understand this combination of dvitIya (madhuvrataM -
objective)
and tR^itIya (antareNa) better. When does a dvitIya word associate with
a
tR^itIya word? Shouldn't an object associate with a verb as opposed to
a
noun?
What does antareNa literally mean?
How does 'antareNa' come to mean "other than or except"?
antaraH = difference, vyatyAsa, contrast, alternative,
(or the act of differentiating?)
antareNa = by the difference, by the contrast, alternatively???
tR^itIya is used to denote an instrument (by means of) or
association ((along) with).
rAmaH mArIchaM bANena hanti |
(rama kills Maricha by means of an arrow)
Here the semantic links are,
hanti = kaH => rAmaH (subject, 1) = doer
\---- kaM => mArIcham (object, 2) = receiver of the effect
\---- kena => bANena (instrument, 3) = the implement
Can we say the following?
1) kANDaM AdhAreNa latA vistarati |
(by taking support of trunk, the creeper spreads)
vistarati = kaH => latA (subject, 1)
\------ kena --> AdhAreNa (instrument, 3)
= AdhAraya (take as support)
\-- kaM -> kANDaM
or, should it be the following?
2) kAnDasya AdhAreNa latA vistarati |
(by taking the trunk's support, the creeper spreads)
Here, AdhAra is used as a noun to literally mean prop, support.
My original question was, what makes madhuvrataH associate itself as
the
object of antareNa?
Or, is it like the following?
bin lADen mahodayam mAraNena kim phalam (labhyate)?
(what is the fruit obtained by killing Sri Bin Laden?)
In other words, here is the rule I guessed:
If the root word (mAraNaM) that is made into a tritIya denotes an
action,
then the object of that action (Bin Laden) must be made into dvitIya.
If the root word (bANam) that is made into a tritIya denotes a noun,
then the word associating with it must be a ShaSTi (6th) e.g.,
Bin lADen mahodayasya mAraNa-kAryeNa kim phalam (labhyate)?
(By the Bin Laden's killing act, what's the use)
Here we shouldn't say
mahodayam mAraNa-kAryeNa, since kAryaH is a noun.
In summary,
the antara used in antareNa here is a verb denoting "differentiate",
not
a noun denoting "difference"???
Please enlighten me.
- Sai.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply by P.K.Ramakrishnan.
I venture to submit the following with my limited knowledge
of Sanskrit.
According to Apte -
antareNa is an indeclinable(avyaya) and is used as
a preposition of another word in the dvitiya (accusative)
which will give the meaning of "except".
Therefore, antareNa is not tritiya.
The following words are indeclinable or avyaya.
antaraa, antareNa
They have the follwing meanings -
antaraa = between (used as a preposition with
accusative or dvitiya)
antareNa = except, between.
Therefore, madhuvratam antareNa will mean
except madhuvrata ( bee).
I shall give an example from Srikrishna-karnaamrutam
where both antaraa and antarareNa are used.
anganaam anganaam antaraa maadhavo
maadhavam maadhvam chantareNaanganaa /
itthamaakalpite mandapE madhyagaH
samjagow veNunaa devakiinandanaH //
Here anganaam is dvitiya where antaraa is used.
And Maadhavam is dvitiya where antareNa is used
but the meaning is between.
I hope I have sufficiently explained.
P.K.Ramakrishnan
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:21:57 -0800 (PST)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] skt quizz # 6, question 7, Mr. Sai's observations.
To: sanskrit digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: quizzmaster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Please see Mr. Sai's observations and my remarks
thereon. This may kindly be published.
P.K.Ramakrishnan
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SAI�S COMMENTS ON THE LAST QUESTION
Skt. quizz # 6
Question 7.
(This is being repeated by PKR-
maNishshANollIDhaH samaravijayI hetidaLito>
madakShINo nAgaH sharadi saritaH shyAnapulinAH>
kaLAsheShashchandraH suratamR^iditA bAlavanitA>
tanimna shobhante gaLitavibhavAshchArthiShu narAH ---- )
> Regarding this Sloka, after your explanation, I kind of get it. Still >
> can't understand how the Sloka can be made to mean this. I am trying
to prosify the Sloka to get this meaning...
>
>
> "tanimna" - I don't know how to fit it into the following gadya
rUpam:>
> Maybe it is "te nimna". In that case,
>
> te nimna shobhante:
>
> ^^^^^ it should be nimnAH shobhante, or nimnAshshobhante
>
> (they all shine low):
>
> 1. shAnOllIDhaH maNiH, 2. heti-gaLitaH samaravijayI 3. madakShINaH
>
> nAgaH, 4. shyAnapulinaH saritaH, 5. suratamR^iditA bAlavanitA,
>
> ^-------^ both should be aH or AH together
>
> 6. arthiShu gaLita-vibhavAH narAH cha
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> If the above corrections are made, then it makes sense.
>
> The under-current throughout is "so what?". Beautiful, beautiful!
>
> The saptamI (arthiShu) in the last usage is why I love sanskrit so>
> much.
>
> It is a beautiful way of expressing the thought. It literally means,>
> "Those men who have their prosperity/wealth diminished >
> in alm-seekers"
>
> ^^ (by ending up into the hands of)>
>
> Excellent Sloka selection!
>
> - Sai.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Before taking up Mr. Sai's suggested corrections, I would point
out two small correctionns in the sloka first given in the quizz.
I have now searched my library and got a printed book containing
this sloka with meaning in Hindi.
kaLAsheShas should read kalAsheShas
tanimna should read tanimnA
I find the following alternate readings ( paathabhedas) -
hetinihato instead of hetidaLito
janAH instead of narAH.
These are of no consequence.
Now Mr. Sai's comments.
Maybe it is "te nimna". In that case, te nimna shobhante:
My clarification.
tanimna - the correct version is tanimnA.
This is thritiya vibhakti, singular of the word taniman
meaning = thinness. It is nakaarantham in the same
way as rAjan. The third vibhakti of rAjan is rAjnA.
Similarly taniman becomes tanimnA in the third
vibhakti, singular, meaning by thinness.
The various items mentioned in the sloka,
have lost something and bcome thin.
The gem, the warrior, the elephant, the rivers,
the moon, the young woman and the wealthy person.
This is in consonance with the Hindi translation
contained in the printed book with me.
It says "sab krishatA se hi acche lagte hein"
Mr. Sai has mentioned that
suratamR^iditA bAlavanitA, both should be aH or AH together
This is not correct. Both are AkArantham singular and not plural.
Comments on this are welcome.
PKR.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:35:10 -0500
From: "Knudsen, Toke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Sanskrit] Explanation of Q-4 by Mr. P.K. Ramakrishnan
To: "Sai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Dear Sai,
> Could you give me an example usage where dakShiNena is in its avyaya form? I
> can't think of any.
I have seen it used in this form a number of times, but I do not remember exactly
where and will therefore have to look up the verses. The contexts in which I have
seen this usage are verses in astronomical treatises.
> Also, a follow-up question. How is it decided that a particular word is in
> avyaya form or not in a sanskrit sentence?
You have to be guided by the context to decide this. It is the context that will tell
you whether 'nityam' is an adjective ('continual') or an avyaya ('always').
Best,
Toke
------------------------------
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End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 10, Issue 28
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