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Today's Topics:
1. From where are the tiN^ and sup terms? (Jay Vaidya)
2. Number of dhatus - correction: 1969 verb-roots (Jay Vaidya)
3. (Anne-Christine Debarge)
4. Bhaagavatam on SaptarShi's (A. R. Srikrishnan)
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:01:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] From where are the tiN^ and sup terms?
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
sAyyaH prashnAni, taduttarANi cha dIyate:
> I presume the '21' subanta forms are the vibhaktis.
Our schoolteachers do often call these 21 forms
"vibhakti". Correctly, both subanta and tiN^anta are
vibhakti, because they are "vibhAjita (divided)" into
N (7 or 3, resp.) rows and 3 columns.
> When you say ... same in all its 21 subanta forms,
>... can actually be used in all the vibhakti forms?
>... how can you use 'yathASakti' in, say, ShaShTI
>vibhakti?
Ambujan Raman gazh has given a very good example of
yathAshakti used in a place where shhashhThii is
called for. So it is a shhashhThI, but the form looks
the same, i.e., 'yathAshakti'. Please see his message.
> Why is 'ti~Nanta called that way? ... What is ti~N'y
> about ti~Nanta
tiN^-anta are words that end in tiN^-endings. tiN^ is
a pANinIya grammar only term, it has no other meaning
outside of grammar. It is concise way to represent a
list of 18 endings, each of which is added to dhAtus,
or verb-roots in tabulations of 3x3=9. The first 9 are
the endings of parasmaipada (which is used for certain
verb-roots/contexts) and the next 9 are are the
endings for atmanepada (used for certain/other
verb-roots/contexts). The list is as follows:
P1a-b-c: tip-tas-jhi
P2a-b-c: sip-thas-tha
P3a-b-c: mip-vas-mas
A1a-b-c: ta-AtAm-jha
A2a-b-c: thAs-AthAm-dhvam
A3a-b-c: iT-vahi-mahiN^
These are the actual endings=pratyayas. They do not
need to have any other meaning. For conciseness, we
take the 'ti' from the first and the 'N^' of the last,
and this 'ti+N^' = tiN^ stands for all 18 pratyayas.
This is for conciseness only. (Like in English 'Saint'
is shortened to 'St' -- 'S' from the beginning, 't'
from the end :-) )
How are these pratyayas used? To begin with, they are
placeholders. Depending on
tense/mood/karmaNi-bhAve/etc., they are modified.
Finally, the modified verb root and the modified
ending are joined to give a usable word.
Examples--
Look at this exceptional example where there is nearly
no change. But it is a useful starter:
We want to say "you [plural] protect [present]"
pA (to protect) + tha (pratyaya P2c from above)
= pAtha.
('plural' and 'present' are English terms)
Usually at least a few changes take place.
We want to say "(they) were done [yesterday or
earlier]"
To start with, the same,
kR^i (to do) + jha (pratyaya A13 from above)
Based on additions/modifications that are dependent on
tense (non-immediate past), karmaNi etc., this
original "placeholders" start looking very different.
Let us show the final product without going through
the detailed steps
-- akriyanta
>How about karmaNi forms of verbs? kriyate is a
>ti~Nanta isn't it?
As we have seen above, anything that starts with
"placeholders" from the tiN^ list (of 9+9) are
tiN^anta no matter how many changes take place.
The set of nine in this case being
kriyate-kriyAte-kriyante
kriyase-kriyAte-kriyadhve
kriye-kriyAvhe-kriyAmahe
> Where do laTs, loTs etc. fit in?
There are 10 of these lakAras:
laT, liT, luT, lR^iT, leT, loT, laN^, liN^, luN^,
lR^iN^
They are approximately (but not exactly) parallel to
English tenses/moods.
These are the primordial "placeholders" before one
chooses which of the tiN^ pratyayas to use. Logically,
they come at a very early stage of word formation.
Suppose we want to save "may [he/she] save!", using
the verb-root pA=to save/protect. We know that the
"finite action" is going to reside in this word.
This inherent feeling is represented by grammarians
with a lakAra after the 'pA' -- note that individual
speakers don't actually have to know the grammatical
terms, just like we don't have to know the medical
names of muscles to use them.
So the first step is
--- pA + (some lakAra -- which?)
based on "tense/mood" we may choose loT, liN^ or leT
(leT only in vedas). Let us say we choose loT
--- pA+loT
Now to get anywhere further, we need to actually put a
tiN^ pratyaya, but which?
Based on third person singular (English terms), we
choose P1a from above 'tip', always keeping in mind,
that it began as loT
---pA+tip (loT)
Going through a few modifications we end with
---pAtu (this word is often used in stotra hymns)
>and what is sup'y about subanta? :-)
Just like tiN^, sup is a concise way to stand for the
actual list of 21 pratyayas
1a-b-c su-au-jas
2a-b-c am-aut-shas
3a-b-c TA-bhAm-bhis
4a-b-c N^e-bhyAm-bhyas
5a-b-c N^asi-bhyAm-bhyas
6a-b-c N^as-os-Am
7a-b-c N^i-os-sup
Similar to tiN^, they took the first part (su) and the
last letter (p) of the list, and gave the list its
name "sup".
Example:
minimal change example--
mAlA+bhyAm = mAlAbhyAm (by/for/from the two garlands)
extreme change example--
yusmad+N^asi = tubhyam (many steps to get this
finally)
Regarding making these concise list-names, there are
some rules that must be followed. We will not state
them here.
> Next question: I need a "big picture" of sanskrit
> structure.
> Is it possible to give a 30000 ft view of PaNini's
> construction of the sanskrit language structure?
As you suggest this is very hard. The basic
theoretical meaningful structure in sa.nskR^ita, as
agreed by grammarians in other languages as well, is
the vAkya or sentence. A native speaker "explodes" or
"sprouts" (sphoTa) full sentences.
Any breakup of the sentence is in that sense not
"real". It is only there to teach students in easy
bite sized lessons. Also sometimes when the bite-sized
descriptions are good, they give us insight into the
psychology of word production. However, it really does
not matter.
So the following description I will give should be
thought of in the 30,000 feet distance in mind. It
ignores exceptions.
>I am looking for something like:
>"A meaningful sanskrit basic building block =
> 2000 roots x 18 ti~Nantas + 2000 roots x 21
>subantas + ..."
- A meaningful sa.nskR^it sentence consists of one of
more "pada"s. "pada" approximately means "word" in
English.
- At least one of the 'pada's is a tiN^anta (one of
1035 dhAtu=verb-roots + one of 18 pratyayas of the
tiN^ list, suitably modified according to grammatical
rules). If none is seen or heard, it is necessarily
one of the well-undertood forms of as/bhU/"to be" in
English.
- All other 'pada's, if any, (that are not tiN^anta)
are subanta (a meaningful non-verb-root=prAtipadika +
one of the 21 pratyayas that are in the 'sup' list).
Nearly always, if no subanta is seen or heard, at
least one subanta is assumed to be present based on
context.
-Sometimes, the prAtipadika consists of compounds of
other units, (these could have been prAtipadikas by
their own right if the speaker so chose)
-A vast majority of of very basic prAtipadikas (keep
breaking them down till you can no more) are
ultimately derived from one of 1035 verb roots and a
pratyaya which is non-tiN^)
All 'pada's of a sentence can be arranged in a
hierarchy of dominance (visheshhaNa-visheshhya-bhAva).
At the top of the hierarchy is the one thing that is
the subject of the sentence. It may/may not have its
own hierarchy independent of the tiN^anta, but
necessarily, there is a next hierarchical node at the
tiN^anta. In 99.99999... percent of all "ekavAkya"
(rough English equivalent is "simple sentence"), there
is exactly one tiN^anta. (There is exactly ONE known
exception in all of sa.nskR^ita literature.) All kinds
of kArakas (if any) are below the hierarchy of the
tiN^anta. Each of these can be at the head of their
own hierarchies. In any one step of the hierarchy, the
one above is called the visheshhya, the one below is
the visheshhaNa. Obviously, any intermediate node is
visheshhaNa for the node above it, but visheshhya for
the node below it.
svasti,
dhana.njayaH
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:41:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Number of dhatus - correction: 1969 verb-roots
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Correction:
In the last long message, I stated that there are 1035
verb roots in sa.nskR^it.
CORRECTION: There are 1969 verb roots
Though I had said there would be errors in the
aeroplane-view of the sa.nskR^ita grammatical
landscape, this was not the kind or error I meant to
make.
Where did I get so exact a number as 1035? That is the
number of verb-roots in the 1st declension (1st
sub-list) of the compiled list of verb-roots.
___
sAdhvIkaraNam
pUrvam uktam mayA yat sa.nskR^itabhAshhAyaM
sahasra-pa.nchAtri.nshad dhAtavaH gaNitAH, tanna |
tat sAdhvIkaromyatra: santi dvisahasrAH
ekatrishadvarjitAH |
uktavAn aham tatsandeshe yat sa.nskR^itavyAkaraNasya
vimAnAvalokane bhavishhyanti truTayaH agatikatvAt --
tAm etatprakArAkAm naiva chintitavAn |
kutra prAptA eshhA sUxmA gaNanA 1035 dhAtUnAM mayA |
sA sa.nkhyA bhvAdigaNasya dhAtUnAm |
dhana.njayaH
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:38:57 +0200
From: Anne-Christine Debarge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Anne-Christine DEBARGE
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:34:57 +0530
From: "A. R. Srikrishnan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Bhaagavatam on SaptarShi's
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>bhoH shriikR^iiSNamahashayaaH!
>
>saaayi mahaashayasya nideshamanusR^itya ahaM devavaaNyaameva pR^icChaami.
>
>bhaagavate kasmin skandhe kasmin sarge katame shloke idaM uktamiti j~naatumicChaami.
>
>
>
>iti
>bhavadiiyaH
>
||vande ||
srimadbhaagavate aShtama-skandhe manwantaaraaNaam, saptarShiiNaam ca
varNanam dR^ishyate. adhyaayaanaam shlokaanaam ca samKhyaa.H atra
nirdeShtum yataami:
aShtamaskandhe, praThamasarge, saptadasha-slokaad aarabhya
(8.1:17-)
trayodasha-tame sarge,
praThamaslokaad aarabhya ca (8.13:1-)
tatra, manvaantraaNaam krama.H, manuunaam naamaani, saptrShiigaNasya
suucana ca dR^ishyante | saptarShi-gana.H vibhinna-manwantareShu
vibhinno bhavati | atra udaaharaNam: droNaputro ashwatThaama
aagaamini aShtama-manwantare saptarShiShu eko bhaviShyati ityuktam
bhaagavate | adhunaa sa.H saptarShi-gaNe naastiiti suviditam khalu, na ?
(The description of manwantaraas & saptarshis is given in Bhagavatam
in the *8th skandha* - in 1st chapter (17th verse onwards) and 13th
chapter (from 1st verse). The order of manwantaraas, names of manus and
the respective groups of saptarShis are explained there. saptrarShi's
vary across manwantaras. For example, in the next manwantara (8th one)
aswatThaama is going to be one of the saptarShis - and it is well known
that, at present he is not among saptarshis, right ?)
dhanyosmi |
Srikrishnan
> raamakR^iSNaH
>
>"A. R. Srikrishnan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Regarding different "listings" of saptarShis: The explanation for this
>is that, each manwantara (-the course of one manu) has a set of
>saptarShi's associated with its period. R^iShis who constitute the
>group _may_ vary from manwantara -to- manwantara. (The present
>manwantara is the 7th one (name of manu of this one is "vivaswaan")).
>This explanation is based on Bhaagavatam.
>Thanks
>Srikrishnan
>
>2. Re: saptarshi (Vis Tekumalla)
>
>
>
>>From: Vis Tekumalla
>>
>>It seems there are 3 schools on who the saptarishies are.
>>
>>School 1: kaSyapa, atri, bharadwaaja, kauSika, gautama, jamadagni, and vasiShTa
>>
>>School 2: mariichi, atri, a~Ngirasa, pulastya, pulahu, kratu, and vasiShTa
>>
>>School 3: kaSyapa, atri, a~Ngirasa, kauSika, vasiShTa, bhR^igu, agastya
>>
>>I don't know why the differences or the rationale behind the differences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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