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Today's Topics:
1. Re: "la" and "La" (Ambujam Raman)
2. Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 17, Issue 16 (J. K. Mohana Rao)
3. la and La (Jay Vaidya)
4. Re: la and La (peekayar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:00:58 -0400
From: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] "la" and "La"
To: "peekayar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Vis Tekumalla"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "sanskrit digest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Just would like to add one more parameter. In Tamil we have separately 'la', La' and
'zha' (special for Tamil). All of the dravidian languages (including Telugu??) I
believe have all these sounds and letters. Since the encounter of Sanskrit with
Dravidian languages is quite old, I wonder when the classical sanskrit decided to
dispense with 'La' and use 'la' for all occassions.
How did the ancients transliterate 'zha' in Sanskrit?
Let us speculate using a very common word e.g., pazham (in Tamil and dravidian
languages) meaning fruit. The equivalent in Sanskrit is phalam. It is unlikely either
word was adapted from one language into the other. In sanskrit the dhatu is "phal
niShpattau" and hence 'phalati iti phalam'. (Amara 4.15). It is unlikely Tamil
absorbed the word from Sanskrit since it was in currency atleast 5000 years ago before
the aryan contact.
Does the word 'Tamizh' itself occur anywhere in the vedas except for referring to it
as 'drAvida' ? Then how was 'zha' transliterated? As 'la' or La' ?
----- Original Message -----
From: peekayar
To: Vis Tekumalla ; sanskrit digest
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] "la" and "La"
Why some one has to go back to Vedas.?
What about KaaLidaasa?
Though in Devanagari of North India la and La are written in the same form, the
pronunciations are different. In the Itrans a separate letter is provided for La. In
all South Indian Languages and Marathi there are separate letters for La.
So from when it is obsolete?
PKRamakrishnan
Vis Tekumalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As kids we were taught to differentiate between "la" (ya, ra, la) and "La" (the
one that looks like an "8" in repose) in Sanskrit, Telugu, and Oriya classes. Some
examples are:
lalitakaLa - fine arts
Syaamala - a woman's name, or the color of a monsoon cloud.
vilaasini vilasati keLipare - Jayadeva's Geetagovindam
mangaLa - auspicious
Later on, I came across material that says the "La" use in Sanskrit is obsolete
(you will have to go back to Vedas) and has not been in vogue for a long time. Is it
true? Can someone please throw some light of these "la" "La" sounds in Sanskrit.
...Vis Tekumalla
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:21:24 -0400
From: "J. K. Mohana Rao" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 17, Issue 16
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Later on, I came across material that says the "La" use in Sanskrit is obsolete (you
> will have to go back to Vedas) and has not been in vogue for a long time. Is it
> true? Can someone please throw some light of these "la" "La" sounds in Sanskrit.
I never was aware of the fact that La sound existed
during the Vedic times. I think the La sound must
have existed in prAkR^it and apabhraMSa. It existed
in the oldest Dravidian language Tamil alongside
with lzha as in palzhaM. (Incidentally lzha
was in use in kannaDa and pre-Nannaya telugu).
So La was certainly native to the south.
Regards! - J K Mohana Rao
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:58:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] la and La
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Apropos the issue raised by Vis gaaru and PKR gaaru:
There is some confusion regarding la and La.
Among modern languages:
These sounds are present with separate script
characters in the "approximately" south-of-the-vindhya
languages. True boundary isformed by
pa.njAbI-sindhI-gujarAtI-marAThI-telugu-uDiyA
We need to confirm with less-standardized languages
such as rAjasthAnI, chhattisga.DhI etc.
The sound was also present in vaidika sa.nskR^ita, but
not in laukikI bhAshhA. (So not in kAlidAsa.)
Just to be certain we are on the same page, I will say
the following --
The laukikI sa.nskR^itabhAshhA equivalents of examples
given below by VT and PKR are:
lalitakaLA (telugu) <-> lalitakalA (sa.nskR^ita)
shyAmaLA (optional tamizha form) <-> shyAmalA (telugu,
regular tamizha form) <-> shyAmalA (sa.nskR^ita)
kALidAsa/kAlidAsa (optional marAThI forms) <->
kALidAsa (telugu) <-> kAlidAsa (sa.nskR^ita)
There is a qualitative difference between the "L" in
vaidika sa.nskR^ita and that in modern "southern"
languages. As seen in the examples above:
"l" in sa.nskR^ita <-> optional conversion to "L",
"zh", etc., in modern "southern" languages.
The vaidika sound "L" is associated with the "D" sound
of laukikabhAshhA. "D" between vowels, within a
"word", may be converted to "L". (And the "Dh" between
vowels, within a "word" may be converted to "Lh".)
e.g.,
(1st verse of the R^igveda: "I praise the divine
Fire...")
vaidika: agnim ILe purohitam...
laukika: agnim IDe purohitam ...
Interestingly, in this detail, i.e., the softening of
"D" between vowels has been preserved by the
non-"L"-containing "northern" modern languages. The
"D" and "Dh" between vowels, within a word, are
softened in hindI. In writing, the soft sounds are
represented with a dot (nu.ktA) under the letter.
Unlike the other dotted letters, these are NOT
urdU/fArsI/arabI loans, but sa.nskR^ita-derived words.
e.g. pa.DanA (from sa.nskR^ita "patana", to fall)
pa.DhanA (from sa.nskR^ita "paThana", to read)
paMDA (meaning "temple priest", not between vowels,
hence, regular "D")
pa.DA (meaning "had to", between vowels, hence, soft
".D" used).
So, amusingly, the modern "southern" languages have
the approximately vaidic sound "L". But they do not
use it to soften the sa.nskR^ita "D" as in the veda.
They associate it with the sa.nskR^ita "l".
Conversely, the modern "northern" languages do have
the tendency to soften the "D" as in the veda. But
they do not have the "L" sound. They use a very
similar ".D" sound.
dhana.njayaH
> From: Vis Tekumalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Sanskrit] "la" and "La"
> As kids we were taught to differentiate between "la"
> (ya, ra, la) and "La" (the one that looks like an
> "8" in repose) in Sanskrit, Telugu, and Oriya
> classes. Some examples are:
>
> lalitakaLa - fine arts
> Syaamala - a woman's name, or the color of a monsoon
> cloud.
> vilaasini vilasati keLipare - Jayadeva's
> Geetagovindam
> mangaLa - auspicious
>
> Later on, I came across material that says the "La"
> use in Sanskrit is obsolete (you will have to go
> back to Vedas) and has not been in vogue for a long
> time. Is it true? Can someone please throw some
> light of these "la" "La" sounds in Sanskrit.
>
> ------------------------------
> From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Why some one has to go back to Vedas.?
>
> What about KaaLidaasa?
>
> Though in Devanagari of North India la and La are
> written in the same form, the pronunciations are
> different. In the Itrans a separate letter is
> provided for La. In all South Indian Languages and
> Marathi there are separate letters for La.
>
> So from when it is obsolete?
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:31:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] la and La
To: sanskrit digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The late Paramaacharya of Kanchi Mutt has spoken about these letters
Hindu Dharma Chapter 11 Vedic Vocalisation and regional languages.
>From the first mantra of Rigveda -
Da - agnimiiDe - in the yajurveda (also special to Telugu)
La - agnimiiLe - in the rigveda (also special to Kannada)
Zha - agnimiiZhe - in Samaveda (also special to Tamil as in pazham)
According to him these differences in the regional languages are on account of the
importance of the particular veda in these regions.
East Coast including Andhra � mostly yajurvedis
West coast (Karnataka and Maharashtra) � mostly rigvedis.
Tamil Nadu and Kerala � mostly samavedis
His entire lecture runs into several pages with examples. I refrain from reproducing
the same.
P.K.Ramakrishnan
Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Apropos the issue raised by Vis gaaru and PKR
gaaru:
There is some confusion regarding la and La.
Among modern languages:
These sounds are present with separate script
characters in the "approximately" south-of-the-vindhya
languages. True boundary isformed by
pa.njAbI-sindhI-gujarAtI-marAThI-telugu-uDiyA
We need to confirm with less-standardized languages
such as rAjasthAnI, chhattisga.DhI etc.
The sound was also present in vaidika sa.nskR^ita, but
not in laukikI bhAshhA. (So not in kAlidAsa.)
Just to be certain we are on the same page, I will say
the following --
The laukikI sa.nskR^itabhAshhA equivalents of examples
given below by VT and PKR are:
lalitakaLA (telugu) <-> lalitakalA (sa.nskR^ita)
shyAmaLA (optional tamizha form) <-> shyAmalA (telugu,
regular tamizha form) <-> shyAmalA (sa.nskR^ita)
kALidAsa/kAlidAsa (optional marAThI forms) <->
kALidAsa (telugu) <-> kAlidAsa (sa.nskR^ita)
There is a qualitative difference between the "L" in
vaidika sa.nskR^ita and that in modern "southern"
languages. As seen in the examples above:
"l" in sa.nskR^ita <-> optional conversion to "L",
"zh", etc., in modern "southern" languages.
The vaidika sound "L" is associated with the "D" sound
of laukikabhAshhA. "D" between vowels, within a
"word", may be converted to "L". (And the "Dh" between
vowels, within a "word" may be converted to "Lh".)
e.g.,
(1st verse of the R^igveda: "I praise the divine
Fire...")
vaidika: agnim ILe purohitam...
laukika: agnim IDe purohitam ...
Interestingly, in this detail, i.e., the softening of
"D" between vowels has been preserved by the
non-"L"-containing "northern" modern languages. The
"D" and "Dh" between vowels, within a word, are
softened in hindI. In writing, the soft sounds are
represented with a dot (nu.ktA) under the letter.
Unlike the other dotted letters, these are NOT
urdU/fArsI/arabI loans, but sa.nskR^ita-derived words.
e.g. pa.DanA (from sa.nskR^ita "patana", to fall)
pa.DhanA (from sa.nskR^ita "paThana", to read)
paMDA (meaning "temple priest", not between vowels,
hence, regular "D")
pa.DA (meaning "had to", between vowels, hence, soft
".D" used).
So, amusingly, the modern "southern" languages have
the approximately vaidic sound "L". But they do not
use it to soften the sa.nskR^ita "D" as in the veda.
They associate it with the sa.nskR^ita "l".
Conversely, the modern "northern" languages do have
the tendency to soften the "D" as in the veda. But
they do not have the "L" sound. They use a very
similar ".D" sound.
dhana.njayaH
> From: Vis Tekumalla
> Subject: [Sanskrit] "la" and "La"
> As kids we were taught to differentiate between "la"
> (ya, ra, la) and "La" (the one that looks like an
> "8" in repose) in Sanskrit, Telugu, and Oriya
> classes. Some examples are:
>
> lalitakaLa - fine arts
> Syaamala - a woman's name, or the color of a monsoon
> cloud.
> vilaasini vilasati keLipare - Jayadeva's
> Geetagovindam
> mangaLa - auspicious
>
> Later on, I came across material that says the "La"
> use in Sanskrit is obsolete (you will have to go
> back to Vedas) and has not been in vogue for a long
> time. Is it true? Can someone please throw some
> light of these "la" "La" sounds in Sanskrit.
>
> ------------------------------
> From: peekayar
> Why some one has to go back to Vedas.?
>
> What about KaaLidaasa?
>
> Though in Devanagari of North India la and La are
> written in the same form, the pronunciations are
> different. In the Itrans a separate letter is
> provided for La. In all South Indian Languages and
> Marathi there are separate letters for La.
>
> So from when it is obsolete?
__________________________________
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