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Today's Topics:
1. names of dAatu gaNa (Jay Vaidya)
2. RE: Declension (Haresh Bakshi)
3. more on declension (Jay Vaidya)
4. Sanskrit declensions: (V Srini)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:42:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] names of dAatu gaNa
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> From: Kedar Mhaswade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> ...list follows:
> 1 - bhuu + adi
> 2- ad + adi
> 3 - juhoti + adi
> 4 - div + adi
> 5 - su + adi
> 6 - tud + adi
> 7 - rudh + adi
> 8 - tan + adi
> 9 - kry + adi
> 10 - chur + adi
>
> My question is about group 3 and group 7 where, the
> names of the
> groups are NOT according to the name of the
> "dhaatuuH" ...
Your observation regarding the anomalous name for
'juhotyAdi' is very acute.
Regarding the others, the short form of the dhAtu,
rather than the fully "annotated" form is used
e.g.,
(4) divu -> div -- divAdi
(5) shhuJN -> su -- svAdi
(7) rudhir -> rudh -- rudhAdi
(8) tanu -> tan -- tanAdi
(9) DukrIJN -> krI -- kryAdi
Also either the long or short forms give the same name
in the others
(2) ada -> ad ? either gives adAdi
(6) tuda -> tud ? either gives tudAdi
(10) chura -> chur ? either gives churAdi
For (1) bhU is just so in the dhAtupATha, hence bhvAdi
So there is no particular breach of naming rules.
I have made up a weak and debatable explanation for
'juhoti' (I have no proof whatsoever):
There could be confusion with another dhAtu --
But I could not find any other dhAtu hu/hU in the
dhAtupATha.
The closest is hve (to call out OR challenge). hve+Adi
is optionally hva-Adi (or hvyayAdi) by sa.ndhi. Since
hva-Adi can sound like hvAdi in rapid speech, this
could cause confusion. By naming it juhotyAdi, we are
sure that the reference is to 'hu' and not 'hve'.
Dhananjay
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:41:29 -0500
From: "Haresh Bakshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Sanskrit] Declension
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
namaste, when we decide to learn Sanskrit (saMskR^itam), we should be clear
about what "kind" of Sanskrit we want to learn, and how much, and to what
level.
Broadly, we have (i) Vedic Sanskrit, (ii) Classical Sanskrit, and (iii)
"today's" Sanskrit.If you want to learn Vedic Sanskrit, it is a very
specialized study which requires a guru. If you want to learn classical
Sanskrit, you need to learn grammar intensively, which includes declensions.
However, if you want to learn to the level of, say, Hitopadesha,
Panchatantra and good "saMbhaashhaNam" -- conversational -- Sanskrit, you
can do away with much grammar. Then you may not learn rules and regulations
and exceptions. Then the best way to learn is by familiarity: repeated
application of usage of words, and forms. The vocabulary in such cases may
be limited to 3000 to 5000 root words.
Thanks and regards,
Haresh.
----------------------------
Haresh BAKSHI
http://www.SoundOfIndia.com
-----------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 14:45:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] more on declension
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
rAma,
naiva mayA kadApi vibhakty-artham kimapi laxaNa-padyam
GYAtam | bAlye mAtA me mAM punaH punar-abhyAsena
vibhakti-tAlikAH aGYApayat, tAsu kAsh-chit adya-api
mukh-odgatAH |
hA hanta! idam an-abhi-GYAna-mUlakaM GYAnam !
I have never known any mnemonic for declension. In my
childhood, my mother made me know the tables of
declension by many repetitions, some of them still
remain memorized.
Alas! This knowledge without understanding!
dhana.njayaH
Srinivas,
The algorithm is the ashhTAdhyAyI by pANini. Using
this amazing algorithm of only ~4000 statements + a
dictionary, it is possible to describe correct forms
of words (used in sentences) of two generations of the
language (vaidika and classical sa.nskR^ita), as well
as several regional dialect variations of the time of
pANini.
There are some important difficulties in accessing the
gist of the algorithm.
(1) How can you write instructions for PRODUCING a
language in that very language? Isn't it a logically
circular argument? We get around the logical fallacy
by saying that it is a set of instructions for
RECOGNIZING correct forms = a description of correct
forms, NOT producing correct forms.
(2) For reasons we can only guess, there was the
imperative not only to be brief, but to be as brief as
possible, so that no redundancy remains. Normal
language has ambiguities, and redundancies help
eliminate ambiguity. This problem is solved by
inventing a "simpler" extremely restrictive and
artificial version of the language to write the
algorithm. This artificiality is quite annoying if you
are not in the right frame of mind.
(3) Comprehensiveness + brevity, means that either you
describe the whole language or nothing at all. What if
you quickly want to say "of the two cows = gavoH" but
are given the FULL genearal rules for everything
including all possible sa.ndhi? So this is not a quick
reference.
(4) Goedel's incompleteness theorem: It is not
possible to have a self-contained system of rules that
also regulates the rules themselves. pANini has
attempted this partly, i.e., rules for sanskrit usage
+rules for interpreting his rules... but as expected,
at some point he gave up. There is a good reason why
computer programmers do not include a "compiler-code"
within their main functional code. This fallacy pANini
does not/cannot solve. And anyway, his interest was
grammar, not mathematics. So we have to take the help
of "outside" interpretive rules.
So then, pANini's algorithm is not a practical way to
learn good usage ab initio, but to solidify the
knowledge gained by other means.
When sa.nskR^ita was a widely spoken language,
children would have learnt correct usage like we did
with our native tongues, exceptions and all.
Currently, we are all forced to learn sa.nskR^ita as a
foreign language. For each their own method. You could
memorize tables. You could read simple literature and
"unconsciously" get to know the correct forms, and
move on to complex literature. etc...
How to deal with exceptions to memorized tables? Like
sakhi, pati, etc. in your example of i-ending words.
Exceptions are about as common in sa.nskR^ita as they
are in English. To wit: exceptions either occur in
extremely common words, e.g. child/children or
extremely uncommon words e.g., cherub/cherubim. In
sa.nskR^ita pati (common), kuNDapAyya (uncommon)
You will learn the so-called exceptions in common
words very quickly if you study simple literture +
grammar. The uncommon exceptions, frankly, can be
forgotten until much further study.
dhana.njayaH
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:22:54 -0800 (PST)
From: V Srini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Sanskrit declensions:
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hello Vaiday,
Your response was very inspiring and encouraging. It
convinces that (1) learning declensions by-heart is ok
(atleast for beginners) (2) Declensions are not all
that arbitrary as they first seem (since there is a
rule-set that governs them, although complicated). For
some reason, it gives a secure and sound feeling to
have a formal system (Panini's work) define necessary
(and possibly sufficient) conditions for correct
formations of language-elements.
For those who have acquired sufficient knowledge to
attempt Panini's works, would you recommend any good
books on those? With explanation, interpretation, etc.
in either English or in simple Sanskrit.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Send sanskrit mailing list submissions to
> [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> visit
>
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> 'help' to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
> is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sanskrit digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Declension (Jay Vaidya)
> 2. Re: Declension (Ambujam Raman)
> 3. more info on declensions question (V Srini)
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:20:13 -0800 (PST)
> From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Declension
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Srinivas,
>
> There is, in fact, a set of rules (an algorithm)
> that
> governs all declensions, but this set of rules is
> very
> cryptic and dense. You may find the
> "programming-language" of the rules rather
> frustrating
> to begin with, and the effort required in
> understanding the "programming syntax" conventions
> are
> just as hard as memorizing the tables.
>
> However, some patterns are almost obvious as you try
> to memorize, and reduce the work required. For
> example, in the dual number, the forms for
> first-second-(eighth) are the same,
> third-fourth-fifth
> are the same, sixth-seventh are the same. e.g., for
> 'deva'
> devau, devau; devAbhAm, devAbhyAm, devAbhyAm;
> devayoH,
> devayoH
>
> You will notice that such patterns imply that you do
> not have to learn 7x3 = 21 (or 8x3 = 24) forms, but
> fewer.
>
> Could you give an example of what you mean by
> "exception"? It may be useful to leave exceptional
> forms for later study.
>
> Dhananjay
>
>
> > From: V Srini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Do the
> > declensions (Vibhakti s) have some set of rules
> that
> > completely govern all the declensions of all noun
> > roots (eg:agni, atman, nau, etc). ...
> > grammar book some rules of declension, but the
> > problem is: for each type of ending there are so
> > many exceptions ...
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced
> search.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 15:51:45 -0500
> From: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Declension
> To: "Jay Vaidya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jay:
>
> Is there any 'mnemonic' shloka that will help
> remember the declensions for
> the standard terminations?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Vaidya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 3:20 PM
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Declension
>
>
> > Hi Srinivas,
> >
> > There is, in fact, a set of rules (an algorithm)
> that
> > governs all declensions, but this set of rules is
> very
> > cryptic and dense. You may find the
> > "programming-language" of the rules rather
> frustrating
> > to begin with, and the effort required in
> > understanding the "programming syntax" conventions
> are
> > just as hard as memorizing the tables.
> >
> > However, some patterns are almost obvious as you
> try
> > to memorize, and reduce the work required. For
> > example, in the dual number, the forms for
> > first-second-(eighth) are the same,
> third-fourth-fifth
> > are the same, sixth-seventh are the same. e.g.,
> for
> > 'deva'
> > devau, devau; devAbhAm, devAbhyAm, devAbhyAm;
> devayoH,
> > devayoH
> >
> > You will notice that such patterns imply that you
> do
> > not have to learn 7x3 = 21 (or 8x3 = 24) forms,
> but
> > fewer.
> >
> > Could you give an example of what you mean by
> > "exception"? It may be useful to leave exceptional
> > forms for later study.
> >
> > Dhananjay
> >
> >
> > > From: V Srini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Do the
> > > declensions (Vibhakti s) have some set of rules
> that
> > > completely govern all the declensions of all
> noun
> > > roots (eg:agni, atman, nau, etc). ...
> > > grammar book some rules of declension, but the
> > > problem is: for each type of ending there are so
> > > many exceptions ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced
> search.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > _______________________________________________
> > sanskrit mailing list
> > [email protected]
> >
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 13:37:50 -0800 (PST)
> From: V Srini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [Sanskrit] more info on declensions
> question
> To: [email protected]
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello Vaidya,
> Thanks for the response.
> I am attaching a bitmap of the page in HH WIlson's
> book explaining exceptions to the rules of
> declension.
> This example is for declensions of masculine nouns
> in
> "i", like agni.
>
=== message truncated ===
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