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Today's Topics:
1. (Ramanathan Jambunathan)
2. Re: buddha word - in Rmn (Ambujam Raman)
3. Re: buddha word - in Rmn (Ambujam Raman)
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:35:37 -0500
From: Ramanathan Jambunathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit]
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
What is the vigrahavakya for "phalahAram"? Why is it not "phalAhAram"
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:37:39 -0400
From: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] buddha word - in Rmn
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
DHRji:
The verse quoted by PKR:
yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
as it is, is in Srimad Valmiki Ramayana (Gita Press, Gorakhpur) except for
'budha' in the first line which is 'buddha'.
The terms 'tathaagata' as well as 'shakya*muni*' traditionally denote Buddha.
Interpreting them literally will of course provide a different meaning. You
could completely avoid Buddhist oriented interpretation by retaining the verse
as PKR has quoted without any change. But that is distorting the text and the
intention of the *author*. Whoever interpolated this verse had the clear
intention of refuting 'Buddhists' and 'caarvakaas'.
The whole episode of 'jabaalivaada' maybe an interpolation! It is clearly
naastikavaada and an invitation to Epicureanism. There is also a clear
evidence of Greek influence.
I am looking forward to the valmiki net's translation and serious discussion of
the whole episode.
rAmaH
----- Original Message -----
From: Desiraju Hanumanta Rao
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:20 AM
Subject: [Sanskrit] buddha word - in Rmn
If controversy of these verses is to be touched, there is controversy in
these verses reg. the use of word buddha and arguments are there - for and
against.
The verses from 30th to this 34th, and some more in this sarga, are in
upajaati vRitta, leaving off anuSTup. Further, Rama of treta yuga talking about
a later time Buddha is inconsistent. So, these and some more verses in this
sarga are said to be interpolations - this is the opinion of some.
Some say the buddhaH is the one with - viSamastha buddhi - as said in 33
verse - a pervert, out of the ordinary, hence he shall not be entertained. And
so goes the controversy.
However, the anvaya takes thread much before this shloka and the anvaya of
this lone shloka is as below:
[A. Raman and RK garu- there are word differences in this, pl note]
choraH= a thief is, yathaa hi=as to how - as good as, indeed; saH buddhaH =
he that Buddha of Buddhism, or some enlighjtened one; tathaa hi = likewise,
isn't it; tathaa aagatam= in that way, he who resulted - as Buddha; atra= in
such a situation; naastikam viddhi= as atheist, you know; tasmaat hi= thereby,
indeed; yaH = which one - which Buddha; prajaanaam= for people; sha~Nkya tamaH
= doubtable, highly - a highly doubtable one - that Buddha is a doubted person;
budhaH= an intelligent person, a pundit; naastikena= with such an atheist;
abhimukhaH= pro-faced, inclined; na syaat= wil not, become.
"That enlightened one is as good as a theif. You know him to be an atheist.
Thereby he is a highly doubtable person for the people. An intelligent person
should never be incline towards that enlightened person [or, perveted
person]...."
Griffit has recorded like this:
We rank the Buddhist with the thief, [ 1 see notes]
And all the impious crew
Who share his sinful disbelief,
And hate the right and true.
Hence never should wise kings who seek
To rule their people well,
Admit, before their face to speak,
The cursed infidel.
1. The verses in a different metre with which some cantos end are all to be
regarded with suspicion. Schlegel regrets that he did not exclude them all from
his edition. These lines are manifestly spurious. See Additional Notes.
dhananjayji - what you have seen in hindunet is Baroda critical version of
Rmn, encoded by Tokunaga and John Smith. Some sarga-s, and many verses in
sarga-s are expunged as they did not occur in many mss [say some 86 mms] which
were compared by Baroda pundits. RK might have taken this from Gita Press or
from Chaukambha series edn which are full and traditional.
sai - our translation has not yet progressed upto here, going at snail's
pace.
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:25:08 -0400
From: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] buddha word - in Rmn
To: <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The verse quoted by PKR:
yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
Here is an interpretation completely avoiding reference to Buddha!
yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH = Just like (yatha hi) a thief (chorah)so
is(tatha) indeed (hi)the wise (perverted)(budhaH)
tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi = You must know(viddhi) that here(atra) one
who arrives to similar conclusions(tathaagatam) (like you Jabali) is (asti
which is understood) an atheist(naastikam)
tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam = From that (tasmaat)indeed (hi)
whoever(yaH) is most practicably (shakyatama) (the dhatu (shak marShaNe to be
able))of the people(prajaanaam) (i.e., a king like me (Rama) who is for doing
most practicable for the people).
sa naastike budhaha abhimukho na syaat = in that atheistic (perverted) wise
(sa naastike budhah) face-to-face (encounter)(abhimukaH) may not do(na syat).
In other words I, Rama who is for doing most practicable for the people may
not encounter face-toface (in an argument) with a atheistically wise who from
the way you talk is similar to a thief. This you (Jabali) may know.
(In fact Rama avoids answering most of the contentions raised by Jabali !)
rAmaH
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