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Today's Topics:
1. Ramayana query (Jay Vaidya)
2. Re: Query on Valmiki Ramayana (Ambujam Raman)
3. Re: Query on Valmiki Ramayana (Sai)
4. Re: Query on Valmiki Ramayana (Devadas Menon Pullat)
5. Re: Query on Valmiki Ramayana (Mukesh Goel)
6. buddha word - in Rmn (Desiraju Hanumanta Rao)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Ramayana query
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
avochat rAmakR^ishhNaH
> ...34th verse ...Sarga 109 ... Ayodhya Kanda of
> Valmiki Ramayana - ...
> yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH ...
asti
http://www.hindunet.org/ramayana/valmiki.htm
atra sthAne vAlmiki-rAmAyaNasya saMhitA |
tatra ayodhyA-kANDe 109-tame sarge 28 shlokAn eva
pashyamAn aham | api tat sandarbhaH skhalitaH kiM bho
rAmakR^ishhNa?
dhana.njayaH
The text of the vAlmiki rAmAyaNa can be found at:
http://www.hindunet.org/ramayana/valmiki.htm
There, in the 109th sarga of the ayodhyA-kANDa, I only
saw 28 verses. Has there been an error in the
reference?
Dhananjay
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:45:02 -0400
From: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
To: "P.K.Ramakrishnan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "sanskrit digest"
<sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of Valmiki
Ramayana -
yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
Here is how Griffith translates it in verse:
We rank the Buddhist with the thief
And all the impious crew
Who share his sinful disbelief,
And hate the right and true.
Hence never should wise kings who seek
To rule their people well,
Admit, before their face to speak,
The cursed infidel.
He adds in the footnote that being of difference in metre "These lines are
manifestly spurious".
Here is my literal translation.
yathaa hi choraH = Just like a thief
sa tathaa hi buddhaH = so is indeed Buddha (i.e., followers of Buddha)
tathaagatam naastikam atra viddhi = Know here that an atheist is (on par with)
Buddha (i.e his follower)
tasmaat hi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam = From that indeed who (is) most buddhist
(note Buddha's followers were called shakyas)(to be treated like a thief) for
the (benefit of the) people
budhah sa naastike na abimukho syaat = The wise do not encounter
face-to-face that atheist i.e., Wise do not engage in a face-to-face
discussion with the atheist.
rAmaH
----- Original Message -----
From: P.K.Ramakrishnan
To: sanskrit digest
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:49 PM
Subject: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of Valmiki
Ramayana -
yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
This is when he replies to Jabali's naastikavaadam.
Can someone give the meaning of the above verse?
Thanks.
PKRamakrishnan
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:31:11 -0600
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
To: Ambujam Raman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: sanskrit digest <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
No offense meant to anybody, but the reference to the modern Buddha is
surely ludicrous. It seems very likely that tathAgataH merely means
"one who follows that path", not a reference to Buddha.
That said, I searched for this verse in
http://valmikiramayan.net/
but didn't find it.
Unless the last word in the first line is "buddhah", chhandas will be
violated (indra/upendra vajra).
Can somebody point out the correct verse and context in the online
ramayana where we can verify this? Sarga 109 doesn't exist in the above
website.
- Sai.
Ambujam Raman uvaacha:
> The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of Valmiki
> Ramayana -
>
> yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
> tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
> tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
> sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
>
> Here is how Griffith translates it in verse:
>
> We rank the Buddhist with the thief
> And all the impious crew
> Who share his sinful disbelief,
> And hate the right and true.
> Hence never should wise kings who seek
> To rule their people well,
> Admit, before their face to speak,
> The cursed infidel.
>
> He adds in the footnote that being of difference in metre "These lines are
> manifestly spurious".
>
> Here is my literal translation.
>
> yathaa hi choraH = Just like a thief
> sa tathaa hi buddhaH = so is indeed Buddha (i.e., followers of Buddha)
> tathaagatam naastikam atra viddhi = Know here that an atheist is (on par
> with) Buddha (i.e his follower)
> tasmaat hi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam = From that indeed who (is) most
> buddhist (note Buddha's followers were called shakyas)(to be treated like a
> thief) for the (benefit of the) people
> budhah sa naastike na abimukho syaat = The wise do not encounter
> face-to-face that atheist i.e., Wise do not engage in a face-to-face
> discussion with the atheist.
>
> rAmaH
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: P.K.Ramakrishnan
> To: sanskrit digest
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:49 PM
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
>
>
> The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of Valmiki
> Ramayana -
>
> yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
> tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
> tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
> sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
>
> This is when he replies to Jabali's naastikavaadam.
>
> Can someone give the meaning of the above verse?
>
> Thanks.
>
> PKRamakrishnan
>
>
>
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> Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
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>
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:05:05 +0530
From: Devadas Menon Pullat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
To: sanskrit digest <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Buddha is a teacher of Advaitha in other words the ultimate reality that
there is/can be no GOD. In other words there is no Rama, Krishna or any
such thing. Surely the writer of Ramayana will be upset at such a person :-)
regds...devadas
At 05:01 AM 4/6/05, Sai wrote:
>No offense meant to anybody, but the reference to the modern Buddha is
>surely ludicrous. It seems very likely that tathAgataH merely means
>"one who follows that path", not a reference to Buddha.
>
>That said, I searched for this verse in
> http://valmikiramayan.net/
>but didn't find it.
>
>Unless the last word in the first line is "buddhah", chhandas will be
>violated (indra/upendra vajra).
>Can somebody point out the correct verse and context in the online
>ramayana where we can verify this? Sarga 109 doesn't exist in the above
>website.
>- Sai.
>
>Ambujam Raman uvaacha:
> > The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of
> Valmiki Ramayana -
> >
> > yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
> > tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
> > tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
> > sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
> >
> > Here is how Griffith translates it in verse:
> >
> > We rank the Buddhist with the thief
> > And all the impious crew
> > Who share his sinful disbelief,
> > And hate the right and true.
> > Hence never should wise kings who seek
> > To rule their people well,
> > Admit, before their face to speak,
> > The cursed infidel.
> >
> > He adds in the footnote that being of difference in metre "These lines
> are manifestly spurious".
> >
> > Here is my literal translation.
> >
> > yathaa hi choraH = Just like a thief
> > sa tathaa hi buddhaH = so is indeed Buddha (i.e., followers of Buddha)
> > tathaagatam naastikam atra viddhi = Know here that an atheist is (on
> par with) Buddha (i.e his follower)
> > tasmaat hi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam = From that indeed who (is) most
> buddhist (note Buddha's followers were called shakyas)(to be treated like
> a thief) for the (benefit of the) people
> > budhah sa naastike na abimukho syaat = The wise do not encounter
> face-to-face that atheist i.e., Wise do not engage in a face-to-face
> discussion with the atheist.
> >
> > rAmaH
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: P.K.Ramakrishnan
> > To: sanskrit digest
> > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:49 PM
> > Subject: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
> >
> >
> > The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of
> Valmiki Ramayana -
> >
> > yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
> > tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
> > tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
> > sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
> >
> > This is when he replies to Jabali's naastikavaadam.
> >
> > Can someone give the meaning of the above verse?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > PKRamakrishnan
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:22:09 -0700
From: "Mukesh Goel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
How is it possible to find a reference of Lord Buddha in Valmiki Ramayana?
Is not Valmiki Ramayana written much earlier than Buddha's birth? Could this
verse be a later modification?
Mukesh
----Original Message Follows----
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Ambujam Raman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: sanskrit digest <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:31:11 -0600
No offense meant to anybody, but the reference to the modern Buddha is
surely ludicrous. It seems very likely that tathAgataH merely means
"one who follows that path", not a reference to Buddha.
That said, I searched for this verse in
http://valmikiramayan.net/
but didn't find it.
Unless the last word in the first line is "buddhah", chhandas will
be
violated (indra/upendra vajra).
Can somebody point out the correct verse and context in the online
ramayana where we can verify this? Sarga 109 doesn't exist in the above
website.
- Sai.
Ambujam Raman uvaacha:
> The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of
Valmiki Ramayana -
>
> yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
> tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
> tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
> sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
>
> Here is how Griffith translates it in verse:
>
> We rank the Buddhist with the thief
> And all the impious crew
> Who share his sinful disbelief,
> And hate the right and true.
> Hence never should wise kings who seek
> To rule their people well,
> Admit, before their face to speak,
> The cursed infidel.
>
> He adds in the footnote that being of difference in metre "These
lines are manifestly spurious".
>
> Here is my literal translation.
>
> yathaa hi choraH = Just like a thief
> sa tathaa hi buddhaH = so is indeed Buddha (i.e., followers of Buddha)
> tathaagatam naastikam atra viddhi = Know here that an atheist is (on
par with) Buddha (i.e his follower)
> tasmaat hi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam = From that indeed who (is) most
buddhist (note Buddha's followers were called shakyas)(to be treated like a
thief) for the (benefit of the) people
> budhah sa naastike na abimukho syaat = The wise do not encounter
face-to-face that atheist i.e., Wise do not engage in a face-to-face
discussion with the atheist.
>
> rAmaH
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: P.K.Ramakrishnan
> To: sanskrit digest
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:49 PM
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Query on Valmiki Ramayana
>
>
> The following is the 34th verse in Sarga 109 of Ayodhya Kanda of
Valmiki Ramayana -
>
> yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi budhaH
> tathaagatam naastikamatra viddhi /
> tasmaadhi yaH shakyatamaH prajaanaam
> sa naastike naabimukho budhah syaat //
>
> This is when he replies to Jabali's naastikavaadam.
>
> Can someone give the meaning of the above verse?
>
> Thanks.
>
> PKRamakrishnan
>
>
>
>
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Desiraju Hanumanta Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] buddha word - in Rmn
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If controversy of these verses is to be touched, there is controversy in these
verses reg. the use of word buddha and arguments are there - for and against.
The verses from 30th to this 34th, and some more in this sarga, are in upajaati
vRitta, leaving off anuSTup. Further, Rama of treta yuga talking about a later
time Buddha is inconsistent. So, these and some more verses in this sarga are
said to be interpolations - this is the opinion of some.
Some say the buddhaH is the one with - viSamastha buddhi - as said in 33 verse
- a pervert, out of the ordinary, hence he shall not be entertained. And so
goes the controversy.
However, the anvaya takes thread much before this shloka and the anvaya of this
lone shloka is as below:
[A. Raman and RK garu- there are word differences in this, pl note]
choraH= a thief is, yathaa hi=as to how - as good as, indeed; saH buddhaH = he
that Buddha of Buddhism, or some enlighjtened one; tathaa hi = likewise, isn't
it; tathaa aagatam= in that way, he who resulted - as Buddha; atra= in such a
situation; naastikam viddhi= as atheist, you know; tasmaat hi= thereby,
indeed; yaH = which one - which Buddha; prajaanaam= for people; sha~Nkya tamaH
= doubtable, highly - a highly doubtable one - that Buddha is a doubted person;
budhaH= an intelligent person, a pundit; naastikena= with such an atheist;
abhimukhaH= pro-faced, inclined; na syaat= wil not, become.
"That enlightened one is as good as a theif. You know him to be an atheist.
Thereby he is a highly doubtable person for the people. An intelligent person
should never be incline towards that enlightened person [or, perveted
person]...."
Griffit has recorded like this:
We rank the Buddhist with the thief, [ 1 see notes]
And all the impious crew
Who share his sinful disbelief,
And hate the right and true.
Hence never should wise kings who seek
To rule their people well,
Admit, before their face to speak,
The cursed infidel.
1. The verses in a different metre with which some cantos end are all to be
regarded with suspicion. Schlegel regrets that he did not exclude them all from
his edition. These lines are manifestly spurious. See Additional Notes.
dhananjayji - what you have seen in hindunet is Baroda critical version of Rmn,
encoded by Tokunaga and John Smith. Some sarga-s, and many verses in sarga-s
are expunged as they did not occur in many mss [say some 86 mms] which were
compared by Baroda pundits. RK might have taken this from Gita Press or from
Chaukambha series edn which are full and traditional.
sai - our translation has not yet progressed upto here, going at snail's pace.
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