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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama (Lakshmi Srinivas)
2. Re: Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama (Ambujam Raman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lakshmi Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
To: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I would have prefered the 'bhavatah nvivaraNam' etc.
Can you plse translate 'transliteration convention' into Sanskrit?
Lakshmi Srinivas
Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
bhavatyAH vivaraNam sAdhuH asti |
(Your clarification is good).
etat charchA idAnIm stagitavyA athavA samskR^ite eva anuvartanIyA
(This discussion is best stopped now or else continued in the sanskrit
language itself)
api cha, mama transliteration convention "ITRANS".
- Sai.
Lakshmi Srinivas uvaacha:
> Pratyush,
>
> Allow me to place your comments in perspective.
>
> Transliteration is just a convention - the one which runs in Hindi land for
> whatever reasons is not universally valid. Similarly, the one which is used
> in another state is probably invalid outside that state. You assume
> universality for an unofficial transliteration convention prevalent for
> transcribing Hindi sounds. It was originally popularized primarily by the
> Hindi movie industry and now it seems to be universally used. But let me tell
> you this convention is a dead loss for anything outside of shuddha hindi.
> Take, for example, the 'gh' in gharib and ghanta, the pronunciation is not
> the same but the transliteration convention is the same.
>
> In the South, the addition of 'h' to a 't as in Pratyush comes from the time
> when all 't''s used to represent the English 't', the alveolar one,
> pronounced albeit by all Indians as retroflex! So when the question of
> representing dental sounds of Indian origin came, the differentiation was
> done using an additional 'h'. In an earlier period, when Indian sounds were
> written like the English pronounced it, there was no attempts to make even
> this distinction. Thus 'Courtallam' instead of 'kutralam' (literary version)
> or 'kutthalam' (spoken version) or 'Tambaram' eventhough the initial 't' is
> dental, i.e., identical to the 't' in Pratyush.
>
> Hindi movie industry was the first 'institution' which required a uniform
> convention since its users were outside the Hindi speaking belt in a large
> number and outside India also, for that matter. Even then for a long time,
> they and Hindi language itself has lived with all manner of contradictions
> like the 'd' in 'ladki' and 'badla', in each case a different sound. The
> retroflex 'd' is spelt inconsistently e.g., the word for road 'sarak' spelt
> as such in the case of a famous Delhi street but 'aadmi sadak ka' , the title
> of a movie.
>
> For transliterating Sanskrit, rightfully the topic of most relevance, there
> are multiple conventions available. My own personal preference is for the
> Harvard Kyoto convention since it does not look unduly academic, does not
> have embedded periods etc but it does look, in the opinion of many people, a
> little unaesthetic.
>
> In a list like this, I agree that we should have a uniform convention but I
> notice that many people do not use any transliteration convention. If they
> are consistent, it is merely easier to read.
>
> Incidentally, the last 'a' in Rama, is properly dealt with in grammar.
> Panini's last sutra 'a a' (P 8.4.68), along with the sutra 'tulyAsya
> prayatnam savarNam' (P.1.1.9), deals with it elegantly. The commentaries tell
> you that the short 'a' is a closed 'a' (saMvRta) as opposed to the long 'a'
> which is long as well as open (vivRta).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Lakshmi Srinivas
>
>
> Pratyush
wrote:
>
> Thanks dhananjay and everybody else for elaborate replies.
>
> Taking it further on the same note, I noticed that Rishi spelt "akArAntaha"
> in "akArAnthaha pumlingaha Rama Shabdaha" with a "th". In hindi speaking
> belt, this will be read as tha as in hAthI (an elephant) or "tha" in
> Thailand. Even the Itrans spells a tha as in hAthI and not as a "t" in
> sa.nskRRita. I have seen the same inclusion of an "h" along with a "t" in
> many south Indian names. A lot of places my name too has to carry an
> additional "h", as prathyush.
>
> I am just curious to know if this is due to absence of some sounds in south
> Indian languages, and what should be the correct transliteration of a word
> like aja.ntA (this is itrans). Apologies if this is going beyond the scope
> of the group.
>
> Thanks,
> -pratyush
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jay Vaidya
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
>
> This adds to but does not contradict the informative
> answer by PKR. Modifies the answer by Rishi Kumar.
>
> Rishi Kumar correctly states that the word 'rAma' ends
> in a vowel, but that vowel is incorrectly identified.
>
> > ... "Rama" shabda ends with an "a as in art".
>
> Most dialects of English (Indian radio/Standard
> British RP/Standard American) pronounce "art" with a
> long open 'a'. This is approximately transcribed on
> this list as 'A' or 'aa'
> The Sanskrit pronunciation of the final vowel of
> 'rAma' is the short closed variety. An example is the
> vowel in the word 'up' in Indian English. In standard
> American and British RP, the sound you are looking for
> is that elusive unstressed vowel, which linguists
> refer to as "schwa". It is the last vowel in the
> British RP or Standard American pronunciation of
> 'matter'.
>
> Since Pratyush appears to speak Hindi, it is possible
> to give exact examples of the pronunciation rather
> than the approximate equivalents in English. The final
> vowel of 'rAma' is also represented as the first and
> third vowels of the word 'banAras' (name of city) in
> Hindi. The second vowel of 'banAras' is the long open
> 'A', which is also the first vowel of the Sanskrit
> 'rAma'.
>
> As PKR says,
> > Only in Hindi the last letter gives up its
> > vowel like a.
> Also maraThi, bAN^lA, gujarAtI, etc. But the 'a'
> deletion rules are not identical to Hindi.
>
> Hindi has its own complex set of rules for the
> deletion of 'a', not only from the end of words, but
> sometimes from within the word. For example:
> . 'kamala' (lotus) is written without halanta, but the
> final 'a' is deleted in speech, not writing, and the
> word is pronounced as 'kamal' in Hindi
> . 'kamalA' (name of woman), the central vowel 'a' is
> deleted in speech, not writing, and the word is
> pronounced as 'kamlA' in Hindi.
> These pronunciations are CORRECT and GRAMMATICAL in
> Hindi.
>
> Therefore Hindi speakers must be careful not to apply
> Hindi pronunciation rules to Sanskrit pronunciation.
> (And Marathi speakers should not use Marathi-specific
> rules, and Telugu/Tamil/Bengali/Punjabi speakers must
> not use rules specific to their language) even though
> the shape of the written word looks similar.
>
> Words with halanta always have an explicitly written
> halanta sign in Sanskrit, when written in scripts of
> brAhmI origin (i.e., all Indian scripts except urdU,
> sindhI, roman). In devanAgarI this sign is an oblique
> line below the letter. Following this convention,
> always give full value to the final 'a' sound in words
> that do not have a marked halanta in brAhmI-origin
> scripts.
>
> This is important. e.g.,
> tama (full value to final 'a') means 'darkness'
> tam (halanta) means 'to him'. (But in Hindi, during
> speech, it can mean 'darkness', based on Hindi
> pronunciation rules.)
>
>
> > That is the same reason that all south indian
> > languages have rama instead of ram.
> Be sure to remember that in some southern languages,
> such as kannaDa, the final vowel is the OPEN, short
> 'a', a sound that does not exist in Sanskrit, where a
> CLOSED, short 'a' sound is used.
>
>
> > It has nothing to do with the influence of
> > English.
> Right on.
>
> Dhananjay
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:07:14 -0400
From: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
To: "Lakshmi Srinivas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Sai" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
How about
vaNaantareNa niyamaM
rAmaH
----- Original Message -----
From: Lakshmi Srinivas
To: Sai
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
I would have prefered the 'bhavatah nvivaraNam' etc.
Can you plse translate 'transliteration convention' into Sanskrit?
Lakshmi Srinivas
Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
bhavatyAH vivaraNam sAdhuH asti |
(Your clarification is good).
etat charchA idAnIm stagitavyA athavA samskR^ite eva anuvartanIyA
(This discussion is best stopped now or else continued in the sanskrit
language itself)
api cha, mama transliteration convention "ITRANS".
- Sai.
Lakshmi Srinivas uvaacha:
> Pratyush,
>
> Allow me to place your comments in perspective.
>
> Transliteration is just a convention - the one which runs in Hindi land
for whatever reasons is not universally valid. Similarly, the one which is used
in another state is probably invalid outside that state. You assume
universality for an unofficial transliteration convention prevalent for
transcribing Hindi sounds. It was originally popularized primarily by the Hindi
movie industry and now it seems to be universally used. But let me tell you t
his convention is a dead loss for anything outside of shuddha hindi. Take, for
example, the 'gh' in gharib and ghanta, the pronunciation is not the same but
the transliteration convention is the same.
>
> In the South, the addition of 'h' to a 't as in Pratyush comes from the
time when all 't''s used to represent the English 't', the alveolar one,
pronounced albeit by all Indians as retroflex! So when the question of
representing dental sounds of Indian origin came, the differentiation was done
using an additional 'h'. In an earlier period, when Indian sounds were written
like the English pronounced it, there was no attempts to make even this
distinction. Thus 'Courtallam' instead of 'kutralam' (literary version) or
'kutthalam' (spoken version) or 'Tambaram' eventhough the initial 't' is
dental, i.e., identical to the 't' in Pratyush.
>
> Hindi movie industry was the first 'institution' which required a uniform
convention since its users were outside the Hindi speaking belt in a large
number and outside India also, for that matter. Even then for a long time, they
and Hindi language itself has lived with all manner of contradictions like the
'd' in 'ladki' and 'badla', in each case a different sound. The retroflex 'd'
is spelt inconsistently e.g., the word for road 'sarak' spelt as such in the
case of a famous Delhi street but 'aadmi sadak ka' , the title of a movie.
>
> For transliterating Sanskrit, rightfully the topic of most relevance,
there are multiple conventions available. My own personal preference is for the
Harvard Kyoto convention since it does not look unduly academic, does not have
embedded periods etc but it does look, in the opinion of many people, a little
unaesthetic.
>
> In a list like this, I agree that we should have a uniform convention but
I notice that many people do not use any transliteration convention. If they
are consistent, it is merely easier to read.
>
> ; Incidentally, the last 'a' in Rama, is properly dealt with in grammar.
Panini's last sutra 'a a' (P 8.4.68), along with the sutra 'tulyAsya prayatnam
savarNam' (P.1.1.9), deals with it elegantly. The commentaries tell you that
the short 'a' is a closed 'a' (saMvRta) as opposed to the long 'a' which is
long as well as open (vivRta).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Lakshmi Srinivas
>
>
> Pratyush wrote:
>
> Thanks dhananjay and everybody else for elaborate replies.
>
> Taking it further on the same note, I noticed that Rishi spelt
"akArAntaha"
> in "akArAnthaha pumlingaha Rama Shabdaha" with a "th". In hindi speaking
> belt, this will be read as tha as in hAthI (an elephant) or "tha" in
> Thailand. Even the Itrans spells a tha as in hAthI and not as a "t" in
> sa.nskRRita. I have seen the same inclusion of an "h" along with a "t" in
> many south Indian names. A l ot of places my name too has to carry an
> additional "h", as prathyush.
>
> I am just curious to know if this is due to absence of some sounds in
south
> Indian languages, and what should be the correct transliteration of a word
> like aja.ntA (this is itrans). Apologies if this is going beyond the scope
> of the group.
>
> Thanks,
> -pratyush
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jay Vaidya
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: correct pronunciation: ram Vs. rama
>
> This adds to but does not contradict the informative
> answer by PKR. Modifies the answer by Rishi Kumar.
>
> Rishi Kumar correctly states that the word 'rAma' ends
> in a vowel, but that vowel is incorrectly identified.
>
&g t; > ... "Rama" shabda ends with an "a as in art".
>
> Most dialects of English (Indian radio/Standard
> British RP/Standard American) pronounce "art" with a
> long open 'a'. This is approximately transcribed on
> this list as 'A' or 'aa'
> The Sanskrit pronunciation of the final vowel of
> 'rAma' is the short closed variety. An example is the
> vowel in the word 'up' in Indian English. In standard
> American and British RP, the sound you are looking for
> is that elusive unstressed vowel, which linguists
> refer to as "schwa". It is the last vowel in the
> British RP or Standard American pronunciation of
> 'matter'.
>
> Since Pratyush appears to speak Hindi, it is possible
> to give exact examples of the pronunciation rather
> than the approximate equivalents in English. The final
> vowel of 'rAma' is also represented as the first and
> third vowels of the word 'b anAras' (name of city) in
> Hindi. The second vowel of 'banAras' is the long open
> 'A', which is also the first vowel of the Sanskrit
> 'rAma'.
>
> As PKR says,
> > Only in Hindi the last letter gives up its
> > vowel like a.
> Also maraThi, bAN^lA, gujarAtI, etc. But the 'a'
> deletion rules are not identical to Hindi.
>
> Hindi has its own complex set of rules for the
> deletion of 'a', not only from the end of words, but
> sometimes from within the word. For example:
> . 'kamala' (lotus) is written without halanta, but the
> final 'a' is deleted in speech, not writing, and the
> word is pronounced as 'kamal' in Hindi
> . 'kamalA' (name of woman), the central vowel 'a' is
> deleted in speech, not writing, and the word is
> pronounced as 'kamlA' in Hindi.
> These pronunciations are CORRECT and GRAMMATICAL in
> Hindi.
>
> Therefore Hindi speakers must be careful not to apply
> Hindi pronunciation rules to Sanskrit pronunciation.
> (And Marathi speakers should not use Marathi-specific
> rules, and Telugu/Tamil/Bengali/Punjabi speakers must
> not use rules specific to their language) even though
> the shape of the written word looks similar.
>
> Words with halanta always have an explicitly written
> halanta sign in Sanskrit, when written in scripts of
> brAhmI origin (i.e., all Indian scripts except urdU,
> sindhI, roman). In devanAgarI this sign is an oblique
> line below the letter. Following this convention,
> always give full value to the final 'a' sound in words
> that do not have a marked halanta in brAhmI-origin
> scripts.
>
> This is important. e.g.,
> tama (full value to final 'a') means 'darkness'
> tam (halanta) means 'to him'. (But in Hindi, during
> speech, it can mean 'darkness', b ased on Hindi
> pronunciation rules.)
>
>
> > That is the same reason that all south indian
> > languages have rama instead of ram.
> Be sure to remember that in some southern languages,
> such as kannaDa, the final vowel is the OPEN, short
> 'a', a sound that does not exist in Sanskrit, where a
> CLOSED, short 'a' sound is used.
>
>
> > It has nothing to do with the influence of
> > English.
> Right on.
>
> Dhananjay
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> sanskrit mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://mailman.cs.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/sanskrit
>
> _______________________________________________
> sanskrit mailin g list
> [email protected]
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>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Discover Yahoo!
> Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!
> _______________________________________________
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