On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 05:14:53PM +0100, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> Sylvain Beucler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> tapota :
> 
> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 04:00:27PM +0100, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> >> Sylvain Beucler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> tapota :
> >> > The method from maintain.texi has the advantage of being validated by
> >> > a lawyer specialized in international copyright laws, so I didn't
> >> > really try to figure out what would look more appealing or ugly, what
> >> > would give more or less information - I just use this documented
> >> > standard, just as it is.
> >> 
> >> Sure, but did the lawyer speciliazed in international copyright laws
> >> invalidated the other format (which contained more or less exactly the
> >> same info - the only clear difference is between putting every years
> >> or not, which seems not so important in fine). 
> >
> > Let's put it another way: was the format you use validated?
> 
> 
> 
> Apple (which probably hired many more lawyers than the FSF USA will
> ever do) have no problem with the 1999-2003 notation:
> 
>      "Portions Copyright (c) 1999-2003 Apple Computer, Inc. All Rights
> Reserved"
> 
>         <http://www.opensource.org/licenses/apsl-2.0.php>
> 
> 
> Intel do the same:
>       
>       "Copyright (c) 1996-2000 Intel Corporation 
>       All rights reserved."
> 
> 
>         <http://www.opensource.org/licenses/intel-open-source-license.php>
> 
> The NASA asks for:
> 
>     "Copyright " {YEAR} United States Government as represented by
>     ______ _________________________. All Rights Reserved."
> 
> 
>         <http://www.opensource.org/licenses/nasa1.3.php>
> 
> 
> 
> There are numerous others examples (W3C, X.net etc...).
> 
> There's only one thing that seems unusual in Savane headers is the
> fact that the (c) is not just along the word copyright. But is it
> worth reviewing every files? I would say no, but if you feel it would
> make a difference, that change is no big deal.

Ok, I admit that copyright notices is not as formal as I though :)


> >> Cosmetics does not necessarily invalidate a document from a legal
> >> point of view, as long as it is unequivocal, as matter of
> >> facts. Since, anyway, we are in an international context (meaning: a
> >> messy mixture of national contexts), many others questions would arise
> >> if we were about to question such aspects. Frankly, for a program like
> >> Savane, was matters is that copyright info is here, with the date,
> >> name, relevant address. And if we can make it the easier way to read,
> >> go for it, because if someday we were to sue someone regarding to
> >> savane, I doubt this issue would make any difference.
> >
> > If you think that we can chose a notation for the copyright notices,
> > then ok. As far as I am concerned, I don't think so, just like I
> > wouldn't try to write my own license.
> >
> > Now, if you still want to use your notation, I'll follow it for
> > consistency.
> 
> I do not think a copyright notice is comparable to a license. A
> copyright notice does not defines how the copyright it be handled.
> 
> The following document is I guess what we need in this discussion:
> 
>     http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc
> 
> As you can read there (and the argument "validated by a lawyer" does
> not stand against this state website)  "© 2002 John Doe" is a
> perfectly valid copyright notice.
> 
> What matters is to have 
> 
>      1. The symbol © (the letter C in a circle), or the word
>         "Copyright," or the abbreviation "Copr."; and
> 
> 
>      2. The year of first publication of the work. In the case of
>         compilations or derivative works incorporating previously
>         published material, the year date of first publication of the
>         compilation or derivative work is sufficient. The year date
>         may be omitted where a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work,
>         with accompanying textual matter, if any, is reproduced in or
>         on greeting cards, postcards, stationery, jewelry, dolls,
>         toys, or any useful article; and

I just wonder why maintain.texi carefully distinguish the publication
date, and the date when the published work was finished. Maybe that's
for international copyright laws.


>      3. The name of the owner of copyright in the work, or an
>         abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a
>         generally known alternative designation of the owner. 
> 
> 
> I think we have these three things in all the copyright notice we have
> here. I do not even know what was the original template that led to
> the current notation in Savane. 
> 
> One can also argue that this is USA-centric. Well, what we do here is
> anyway USA-centric.

I'd say Berne-centric, no?

The same document says that copyright notices are not needed (I
suppose, because copyright automatically granted).


> There's no such thing as copyright in France anyway.

Do you mean copyright notices?

The CeCILL (so-called french-law-compatible free software license)
recommands using copyright notices as well, but maybe they had
international in mind for this particular matter.


> So I suggest to keep thing as they are, or, at most, to put the (c)
> along the word copyright like it is done frequently (these are anyway
> redundant). But adding non ending dates and this kind of stuff seems
> just overcomplicating things, not improvising lisibility. 

Fine.

-- 
Sylvain

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