Hi Gunnar, I apologize to everybody if I have come across as being harsh.
>From my 8 years of experience of living in Asia and being actively involved as a developer and working with developers (at Microsoft as its first .NET Regional Developer Evangelist in 2001 to recently at Symantec as the first Secure Application Services consultant for APAC), IMO there's a big gap between the maturity of software security here vs. Europe vs. West Coast USA vs. East Coast USA. The culture is different and even in the situation that a software developer cared and wanted to implement software security, in many countries they could get in a lot of trouble for upstaging their boss and making him or her "lose face". The responsibility of secure software is not at the developer level in most cases, which is why I've spoken at regional IASA events (www.iasahome.org), with overwhelming positive responses, and will continue to try to reach the decision makers (as an OWASP representative) because trying to engage developers directly at this point in time at the maturity level of software security in APAC is not the most effective way to go about it. I'm sure, though, that at financial institutions they get it, but almost all of my clients are government and media/communications companies. Also, sorry to everybody for taking this thread off-topic. Stephen On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Gunnar Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > stephen > > i spend at least half my time working directly with developers. > > for some reason i have not communicated as well as i should to you, what i > am saying is that the job is too hard for developers *because* the security > industry has let them down by sending them on a fool's errand of least > privilege. > > the problem or target in your words IS with security people NOT developers. > they have other problems just not an endless quixotic quest for least > privilege. i am not repeat not throwing developers under the bus in this > argument. > > i am ready, willing and possibly able to be proven wrong on this point and > maybe there is a cost effective way to deploy least privilege in the real > world just want to make sure that i communicate my argument. > > -gunnar > (who is now letting go) > > On Nov 25, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Stephen Craig Evans wrote: > >> I can't let this go. >> >> Gary, you are self-professed working with financial institutions and >> high-end customers. >> >> Gunnar, you are the same, at least what I gather from your Silver >> Bullet podcast when talking about the difference between SOA (top >> down) and Web 2.0 (bottom up). >> >> No flame war intended, but a healthy discussion should be in order. >> >> So please don't talk about "developers" as targets. They/we are the >> lowest on the totem pole. Direct your arrows at the people that you >> deal with. Plain and simple. >> >> Cheers, >> Stephen >> >> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:48 AM, Gunnar Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> >>> look, i am a consultant. i work in lots of different companies. lots of >>> different projects. i don't see these distinctions in black and white. >>> sometimes the cto and managers are best positioned to help companies >>> develop >>> more secure software, sometimes architects, sometimes auditors, and many >>> many times in my experience developers are best positioned. >>> >>> but i really, truly do not care who does it. my only goal is more >>> effective >>> security mechanisms and some pragmatic roadmap to get there. we are in >>> the >>> infancy of this industry (think automotive safety circa 1942, all seat >>> belts >>> and brakes), we are in no position to turn away help from anyone who can >>> help. every company and every project is different, if your organization >>> is >>> set up so that developers are not empowered, but managers and CTOs are >>> then >>> by all means work with them. >>> >>> but actually the main point of my post and the one i would like to hear >>> people's thoughts on - is to say that attempting to apply principle of >>> least >>> privilege in the real world often leads to drilling dry wells. i am not >>> blaming any group in particular i am saying i think it is in the "too >>> hard" >>> pile for now and we as software security people should not be advocating >>> for >>> it until or unless we can find cost effective ways to implement it. >>> >>> -gunnar >>> >>> On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Stephen Craig Evans wrote: >>> >>>> It's a real cop-out for you guys, as titans in the industry, to go >>>> after developers. I'm disappointed in both of you. And Gary, you said >>>> "One of the main challenges is that developers have a hard time >>>> thinking about the principle of least privilege ". >>>> >>>> Developers are NEVER asked to think about the principle of least >>>> privilege. Or your world of software security must be very very very >>>> different from mine (and I think my world at least equals yours but >>>> by about 2 billion people more, which might be irrelevant now but a >>>> little more relevant in the future :-) >>>> >>>> With the greatest, deepest respect to both of you, >>>> Stephen >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Stephen Craig Evans >>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Gunnar, >>>>> >>>>> Developers have no power. You should be talking to the decision makers. >>>>> >>>>> As an example, to instill the importance of software security, I talk >>>>> to decision makers: project managers, architects, CTOs (admittedly, >>>>> this is a blurred line - lots of folks call themselves architects). If >>>>> I go to talk about software security to developers, I know from >>>>> experience that I am probably wasting my time. Even if they do care, >>>>> they have no effect overall. >>>>> >>>>> Your target and blame is wrong; that's all that I am saying. >>>>> >>>>> Stephen >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:48 AM, Gunnar Peterson >>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry I didn't realize "developers" is an offensive ivory tower in >>>>>> other >>>>>> parts of the world, in my world its a compliment. >>>>>> >>>>>> -gunnar >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 25, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Stephen Craig Evans wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> HI, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "maybe the problem with least privilege is that it requires that >>>>>>> developers:..." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IMHO, your US/UK ivory towers don't exist in other parts of the >>>>>>> world. >>>>>>> Developers have no say in what they do. Nor, do they care about >>>>>>> software security and why should they care? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, at least, change your nomenclature and not say "developers". It >>>>>>> offends me because you are putting the onus of knowing about software >>>>>>> security on the wrong people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Stephen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Gunnar Peterson >>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> maybe the problem with least privilege is that it requires that >>>>>>>> developers: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. define the entire universe of subjects and objects >>>>>>>> 2. define all possible access rights >>>>>>>> 3. define all possible relationships >>>>>>>> 4. apply all settings >>>>>>>> 5. figure out how to keep 1-4 in synch all the time >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> do all of this before you start writing code and oh and there are >>>>>>>> basically no tools that smooth the adoption of the above. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i don't think us software security people are helping anybody out in >>>>>>>> 2008 by doing ritual incantations of a paper from the mid 70s that >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> or may not apply to modern computing and anyhow is riddled with >>>>>>>> ideas >>>>>>>> that have never been implemented in any large scale systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> compare these two statements >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Statement 1. Saltzer and Schroeder: >>>>>>>> "f) Least privilege: Every program and every user of the system >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> operate using the least set of privileges necessary to complete the >>>>>>>> job. Primarily, this principle limits the damage that can result >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> an accident or error. It also reduces the number of potential >>>>>>>> interactions among privileged programs to the minimum for correct >>>>>>>> operation, so that unintentional, unwanted, or improper uses of >>>>>>>> privilege are less likely to occur. Thus, if a question arises >>>>>>>> related >>>>>>>> to misuse of a privilege, the number of programs that must be >>>>>>>> audited >>>>>>>> is minimized. Put another way, if a mechanism can provide >>>>>>>> "firewalls," >>>>>>>> the principle of least privilege provides a rationale for where to >>>>>>>> install the firewalls. The military security rule of "need-to-know" >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> an example of this principle." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Statement 2. David Gelernter's Manifesto: >>>>>>>> "28. Metaphors have a profound effect on computing: the file-cabinet >>>>>>>> metaphor traps us in a "passive" instead of "active" view of >>>>>>>> information management that is fundamentally wrong for computers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 29. The rigid file and directory system you are stuck with on your >>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>> or PC was designed by programmers for programmers — and is still a >>>>>>>> good system for programmers. It is no good for non-programmers. It >>>>>>>> never was, and was never intended to be. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 30. If you have three pet dogs, give them names. If you have 10,000 >>>>>>>> head of cattle, don't bother. Nowadays the idea of giving a name to >>>>>>>> every file on your computer is ridiculous." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Conclusion(gp): Least Privilege is the point where the practical >>>>>>>> matter of applying Saltzer and Schroeder's principles breaks down in >>>>>>>> modern systems. Its a deployment issue, and a matter of insufficient >>>>>>>> models and modes. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://1raindrop.typepad.com/1_raindrop/2008/06/mashup-of-the-titans.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Remember the 1990s when there were all these search engines that >>>>>>>> required you tag up all the content and put it in hierarchical >>>>>>>> directories and so on? Well what happened? Google came along and ate >>>>>>>> their lunch. When the problem is information overload, telling >>>>>>>> everyone to go out and label everything is not gonna work. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -gunnar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2008, at 4:34 PM, Gary McGraw wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sadly this non-adoption of privileged/managed code (filled with >>>>>>>>> blank stares) has been the case ever since the Java security days a >>>>>>>>> decade ago. One of the main challenges is that developers have a >>>>>>>>> hard time thinking about the principle of least privilege and its >>>>>>>>> implications regarding the capabilities they should request. Dinis >>>>>>>>> is brave to set such thinking as a target. I've settled (after ten >>>>>>>>> years) with getting developers just to utter the word "security." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All together now..."security". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> gem >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> company www.cigital.com >>>>>>>>> podcast www.cigital.com/silverbullet >>>>>>>>> blog www.cigital.com/justiceleague >>>>>>>>> book www.swsec.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/24/08 12:31 PM, "Mike Lyman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dinis Cruz wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Don't get me wrong, this is a great document if one is interested >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> writing applications that use CAS (Code Access Security), I would >>>>>>>>>> love >>>>>>>>>> for this to be widely used. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When we recommended recommending CAS during a review of the U.S. >>>>>>>>> Defense >>>>>>>>> Information System Agency's new Application Security and >>>>>>>>> Development >>>>>>>>> Security Technical Implementation Guide earlier this year we were >>>>>>>>> met >>>>>>>>> with what amounted to blank stares. (At least it seemed like that >>>>>>>>> since >>>>>>>>> it was a phone conference.) Some on the call understood it and >>>>>>>>> agreed >>>>>>>>> with the recommendation but those hosting the call and doing the >>>>>>>>> writing >>>>>>>>> didn't seem to grasp it. It may be a while before we see too many >>>>>>>>> adopting this or requiring it for a while. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike Lyman >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org >>>>>>>>> List information, subscriptions, etc - >>>>>>>>> http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l >>>>>>>>> List charter available at - >>>>>>>>> http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php >>>>>>>>> SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC >>>>>>>>> (http://www.KRvW.com >>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>> as a free, non-commercial service to the software security >>>>>>>>> community. >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org >>>>>>>>> List information, subscriptions, etc - >>>>>>>>> http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l >>>>>>>>> List charter available at - >>>>>>>>> http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php >>>>>>>>> SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC >>>>>>>>> (http://www.KRvW.com >>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>> as a free, non-commercial service to the software security >>>>>>>>> community. >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org >>>>>>>> List information, subscriptions, etc - >>>>>>>> http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l >>>>>>>> List charter available at - >>>>>>>> http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php >>>>>>>> SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC >>>>>>>> (http://www.KRvW.com) >>>>>>>> as a free, non-commercial service to the software security >>>>>>>> community. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. _______________________________________________
