Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
For those of us who play natural horn, parts transposed for horn in F are a nuisance I did a concert last week where we had to back-transpose bnrcause orignal parts were not provided. Even when I play the modern instrument I would never play from transposed parts - as John said, there is information there which is immediately obvious in the originals but which has to be looked for in a transposed part. Cheers, Lawrence -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
The last time I had to mark up a set of orchestral parts from a critical Bärenreiter edition of a Mozart opera, there were two sets of horn parts. The horn players told me they preferred to use the parts written as in the original, without key signatures. As to David's original question, I would think that the key signature was just a mistake made by a careless engraver. Michael On 30 Oct 2010, at 02:57, John Howell wrote: At 8:22 PM -0400 10/29/10, David W. Fenton wrote: On 29 Oct 2010 at 16:53, Chuck Israels wrote: That is the explanation I expected, but it's hard for me to swallow the reasoning that this tradition should hold for modern valved horns and not for trumpets - more or less modern valved bugles. Conventions and traditions don't have to be logical, and often are not. And you might not like them, but that won't change them. I would be interested to know what the part sets that go with modern critical editions have in them, i.e., if they have both natural horn parts in C and parts notated with a key signature for horns in F. As you know, most modern part sets are reprints of public domain sets, so those normally have only the original parts. But Luck's, Kalmus, and perhaps others have made a point of preparing and publishing sets that include transposed parts for modern standard instruments, including clarinets in Bb, trumpets in Bb, and horns in F, and quite often trombone parts in bass clef as well. Highly experienced orchestral players often prefer to read from the original parts, feeling (as do many early music players) that they provide information that's lost in a modern edition. Critical editions are a different animal, and I'm not sure how those sets are handled. Since they are also almost always much more expensive than the reprints (especially the Bärenreiter editions), I usually see the reprint parts. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Fwd: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps
Trying again, A few years ago I had to ask the same question and I got the solution. There was and easy answer which involved changing a number - like 6 to 7 - which would make the key sig flats instead of sharps. Stan Begin forwarded message: From: Stan Lord amus...@me.com Date: 28 October 2010 07:06:34 GMT+01:00 To: Finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu MacFin 2010. I have a piece in E major and the tpt transposition comes out as 6 sharps. How can I change this to 6 flats. Stan Lord ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps
Sorry about the accidental send before completed.. Here's what I started to say, Staff attributes, transposition, key signature, other, interval=2, key alter = -10. James Cooper Composer, classical guitarist, songwriter www.ModeZ.com On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 5:42 AM, James Cooper j...@modez.com wrote: I'm in 2011, but I think you could do it in 2010. Staff attributes, On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:17 AM, Stan Lord amus...@me.com wrote: Trying again, A few years ago I had to ask the same question and I got the solution. There was and easy answer which involved changing a number - like 6 to 7 - which would make the key sig flats instead of sharps. Stan Begin forwarded message: From: Stan Lord amus...@me.com Date: 28 October 2010 07:06:34 GMT+01:00 To: Finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu MacFin 2010. I have a piece in E major and the tpt transposition comes out as 6 sharps. How can I change this to 6 flats. Stan Lord ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- James Cooper Composer, classical guitarist, songwriter www.ModeZ.com -- ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps
Write it for trumpet in A On 30 October 2010 10:17, Stan Lord amus...@me.com wrote: Trying again, A few years ago I had to ask the same question and I got the solution. There was and easy answer which involved changing a number - like 6 to 7 - which would make the key sig flats instead of sharps. Stan Begin forwarded message: From: Stan Lord amus...@me.com Date: 28 October 2010 07:06:34 GMT+01:00 To: Finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu MacFin 2010. I have a piece in E major and the tpt transposition comes out as 6 sharps. How can I change this to 6 flats. Stan Lord ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps
The usual transposition for a Bb instrument is Interval 1 and Key Alter 2, meaning one step up and add two sharps. You need the trumpet part to be written in Gb major, so the settings should be two steps up and enough flats to cancel the four sharps of E major and create the six flats for Gb major. Use Interval 2 and Key Alter -10. Michael On 30 Oct 2010, at 11:17, Stan Lord wrote: Trying again, A few years ago I had to ask the same question and I got the solution. There was and easy answer which involved changing a number - like 6 to 7 - which would make the key sig flats instead of sharps. Stan Begin forwarded message: From: Stan Lord amus...@me.com Date: 28 October 2010 07:06:34 GMT+01:00 To: Finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu MacFin 2010. I have a piece in E major and the tpt transposition comes out as 6 sharps. How can I change this to 6 flats. Stan Lord ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps
I'm in 2011, but I think you could do it in 2010. Staff attributes, On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:17 AM, Stan Lord amus...@me.com wrote: Trying again, A few years ago I had to ask the same question and I got the solution. There was and easy answer which involved changing a number - like 6 to 7 - which would make the key sig flats instead of sharps. Stan Begin forwarded message: From: Stan Lord amus...@me.com Date: 28 October 2010 07:06:34 GMT+01:00 To: Finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu MacFin 2010. I have a piece in E major and the tpt transposition comes out as 6 sharps. How can I change this to 6 flats. Stan Lord ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- James Cooper Composer, classical guitarist, songwriter www.ModeZ.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
At 6:42 AM -0600 10/29/10, James Cooper wrote: I thought the tradition was to not use key signatures for horns. (Scores I have here are consistent with that.) But I'm not a horn player, so I'm sure someone might have a more complete answer. That was indeed the tradition for natural horn, and it continued on into the era of the valve horn. In fact even today some orchestral players prefer not to have key signatures. Band players, on the other hand, would think you're crazy if you didn't give them the expected key signatures. Like most things in music, it's what you're used to. But David's example does seem a bit bizarre, and not in ANY tradition! John -- -James James Cooper Composer, classical guitarist, songwriter www.ModeZ.com On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.comwrote: I'm researching an edition of a Mozart Mass from 1843 that includes an added horn part (i.e., the original had no horns). The score has it listed as Corni in F and the key of the piece is in F, but the key signature for the horns is the same as for the non-transposing instruments. There aren't any Bbs anywhere in the piece, so it doesn't matter, but to me, this is the wrong key signature, since it's notated transposing so that a C sounds F. Is this something that was common? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: Fwd: [Finale] 6 flats instead of 6 sharps
Stan Lord wrote: A few years ago I had to ask the same question and I got the solution. There was and easy answer which involved changing a number - like 6 to 7 - which would make the key sig flats instead of sharps. In the Staff transposition dialog box, changing the value in the Key Alter box changes the key signature. A positive number in this box specifies the number of shaprs in the key signature; a negative number specifies the number of flats. For a fuller explanation, you might consult the documentation. ns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] Is it Time for a Class Action Suit against MakeMusic
At 8:42 AM +0200 10/29/10, dc wrote: David H. Bailey écrit: MusicXML export works wonderfully from Finale, and Sibelius comes with the ability to import MusicXML built-in, so it's really a very painless and pretty accurate process these days. I don't know about the latest version, but I bought Sibelius 5 at the time and converted several files this way (using the Dolet plug-in for better results). Of course, the notes are all there, but it's hours and hours of work to get the file to look anything like it did in Finale. So if you have thousands or even hundreds of Finale files, you can forget this idea... As I recall, it was Coda who boycotted the effort to come up with a universally compatible file format, something like MIDI. And to be fair, it might have been impossible to do, but I suspect that it was a marketing decision at a time when Finale was unquestionably on top. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] convert to XML in 2011
Can I email a 2011 file to someone to convert to an XML file so I can use it in 2010? Please respond directly. Thanks! Ryan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
At 11:29 PM -0500 10/29/10, Robert Patterson wrote: I don't personally know a single professional horn player who works from F-transposed parts. Yes, and that's what the folks on the jazz and commercial side need to understand. Part of an orchestral horn player's pre-professional education is working through the orchestral excerpts books and learning to play from original notation in any reasonable transposition at sight. The worst I ever ran into was in high school, when I was still a horn player, and was playing 4th in a university conducting class orchestra. One of the Brahms symphonies has horn in B, a tritone transposition!!! (And yes, it was REALLY for horn in B, or H, and not in Bb basso!) My problem is that in our small-town-with-a-large-university, when I recruit horn players for our chamber orchestra they are often band players, not orchestral players, and they have NOT learned to transpose from original parts, so I've had to learn where to obtain the transposed parts (and sometimes to transpose them myself for those players). But it's like the need to provide euphonium parts in band arrangements in both bass clef and transposed treble clef. You can argue all you want about why it shouldn't be necessary, but in practice it is, and we give the players what they want to see. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
I don't know any professional horn player who has any difficulty with key signatures worth talking about. The reason we write in the accidentals is that usually rehearsal time is short. If we miss one we write it in so we won't miss it again. If the parts pass thru multiple orchestras (as is often the case), they collect more and more such notations. Then you get your part back and think some horn player marked in every accidental. To me, if a piece has a key signature it implies certain things about the piece. It is far more likely to be a band, big band, or orchestral pops arrangement than a standard rep or contemporary piece. In the band and pops genres you should definitely use key sigs. If you are writing in a different style than that you can consider what you want to imply about your music. At times you may want to imply the pops tradition and others the standard rep. One of the weirdest (and most annoying) notations is that for Handel's Water Music (in D) and Fireworks Music. While Handel's parts in F are transposed in F, his parts in D are transposed in C with two sharps in the key signature. I am sure much ink has been spilled over why, but I haven't ever read any of it. It's annoying to play from though. Whatever the reason, this notation is used in the Bärenreiter edition, so it must have some respectable provenance. On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:48 AM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 6:42 AM -0600 10/29/10, James Cooper wrote: I thought the tradition was to not use key signatures for horns. (Scores I have here are consistent with that.) But I'm not a horn player, so I'm sure someone might have a more complete answer. That was indeed the tradition for natural horn, and it continued on into the era of the valve horn. In fact even today some orchestral players prefer not to have key signatures. Band players, on the other hand, would think you're crazy if you didn't give them the expected key signatures. Like most things in music, it's what you're used to. But David's example does seem a bit bizarre, and not in ANY tradition! John -- -James James Cooper Composer, classical guitarist, songwriter www.ModeZ.com On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.comwrote: I'm researching an edition of a Mozart Mass from 1843 that includes an added horn part (i.e., the original had no horns). The score has it listed as Corni in F and the key of the piece is in F, but the key signature for the horns is the same as for the non-transposing instruments. There aren't any Bbs anywhere in the piece, so it doesn't matter, but to me, this is the wrong key signature, since it's notated transposing so that a C sounds F. Is this something that was common? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] convert to XML in 2011
I can do that. I exported a rather complex 2011 file and imported it into fin2008 for my client who was using fin2008. I think you can do that with any file and as long as it's in xml you can import it into any version? Michael Mathew mmathew_musicp...@comcast.net mmathew_musicp...@yahoo.com http://www.musicengravers.com/cgi-bin/engravers.pl http://oregonmts.com/mathew/ Phone and Fax: 503 641 6127 From: Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:22:39 -0700 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] convert to XML in 2011 Can I email a 2011 file to someone to convert to an XML file so I can use it in 2010? Please respond directly. Thanks! Ryan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] convert to XML in 2011
Thanks for your offer. I found someone to convert it for me. On Oct 30, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Michael Mathew mmathew1...@comcast.net wrote: I can do that. I exported a rather complex 2011 file and imported it into fin2008 for my client who was using fin2008. I think you can do that with any file and as long as it's in xml you can import it into any version? Michael Mathew mmathew_musicp...@comcast.net mmathew_musicp...@yahoo.com http://www.musicengravers.com/cgi-bin/engravers.pl http://oregonmts.com/mathew/ Phone and Fax: 503 641 6127 From: Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:22:39 -0700 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] convert to XML in 2011 Can I email a 2011 file to someone to convert to an XML file so I can use it in 2010? Please respond directly. Thanks! Ryan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] {Spam} Coda, MusicXML, and NIFF
Hi John, As I recall, it was Coda who boycotted the effort to come up with a universally compatible file format, something like MIDI. And to be fair, it might have been impossible to do, but I suspect that it was a marketing decision at a time when Finale was unquestionably on top. Coda was the first major music notation editor to adopt the MusicXML format, back in Finale 2003. MusicXML just celebrated its 10th anniversary, and MakeMusic CEO Ron Raup is quoted in our press release: http://www.recordare.com/company/about-us/press-releases/recordare-ce lebrates-musicxml-s-10th-anniversary Coda did drop out of the earlier NIFF efforts. NIFF had a lot of technical problems. It used a visual model of music representation, and had no direct representation for basic musical concepts like pitch. It matched the way some music scanners work internally, but was a poor match for applications like Finale that also care about playback. Best regards, Michael Good Recordare LLC ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
I see two possible explanations for this: 1. A mistake 2. Since any non-stopped notes on that staff line played by a natural horn player will, indeed, be a Bb, the key signature reflects this reality. The key signature actually notates the horn as being in F mixolydian. This would be highly unlikely. Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC VISIT US at rayhortonmusic.com On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:43 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.comwrote: I'm researching an edition of a Mozart Mass from 1843 that includes an added horn part (i.e., the original had no horns). The score has it listed as Corni in F and the key of the piece is in F, but the key signature for the horns is the same as for the non-transposing instruments. There aren't any Bbs anywhere in the piece, so it doesn't matter, but to me, this is the wrong key signature, since it's notated transposing so that a C sounds F. Is this something that was common? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
On 29 Oct 2010 at 23:29, Robert Patterson wrote: I can't speak about critical editions of classical pieces, because I've only seen original notation in those editions. (Frankly, it surprises me to learn an F-transposed part might be available from, e.g., Bärenreiter.) Nobody said that such a part was available. I *asked* if the part sets for modern critical editions included parts other than the original notation or not, but nobody seems to know. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
On 30 Oct 2010 at 10:01, Florence + Michael wrote: The last time I had to mark up a set of orchestral parts from a critical Bärenreiter edition of a Mozart opera, there were two sets of horn parts. The horn players told me they preferred to use the parts written as in the original, without key signatures. Both parts of that don't surprise me, i.e., that Bärenreiter provides alternate parts in modern notation, and that the players prefer the original! As to David's original question, I would think that the key signature was just a mistake made by a careless engraver. This is my conclusion at this point, but it's unusual to find such a- musical things in engraving, in my experience. I have come to be believe that most engravers were fine musicians with good musical judgment, and served as another layer of editing to make the readings clearer and better. This particular edition is not from a major publisher, so I've not seen anything to compare it to. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
On 30 Oct 2010 at 14:33, Raymond Horton wrote: I see two possible explanations for this: 1. A mistake 2. Since any non-stopped notes on that staff line played by a natural horn player will, indeed, be a Bb, the key signature reflects this reality. The key signature actually notates the horn as being in F mixolydian. This would be highly unlikely. There are no B's in the part at all, so the key signature could be removed and it would be exactly the same notes. The reason I'm looking at this is that the Köchel catalog describes the edition as error-filled and hardly usable. But from scanning through it myself (I actually do know this mass), I couldn't see anything obviously wrong. The only thing that stood out was the funny horn key signature (the horns are not in Mozart's original), so I'm going to have to pull out my NMA and check the text carefully to see if there are other problems or not. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Köchel catalog is simply wrong. For things like this, it's often simply not reliable. What I do need to check is how far back this judgment goes. Part of it is in K6 (error-ridden) and K3 has more (error-ridden and barely usable). The Einstein edition introduced lots of subjective and erroneous material, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was new in K3. But I haven't yet checked K1. If anyone has ready access to K1 (it's not in Google Books, though I am right now downloading K2 in PDF, so if it's not there, I know Einstein is responsible), I'd be interested if you can get in touch with me. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
I agree, nobody said it. It was surprising to think about the possibility considering who I would have thought the target market for a critical edition might be. I can state that many performance materials based on critical editions do not include F-transposed horn parts. (My knowledge is mainly limited to chamber music by Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven, etc.) However, based on another comment in this thread it appears that some pieces do come with F-transposed parts. On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 4:39 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.comwrote: On 29 Oct 2010 at 23:29, Robert Patterson wrote: I can't speak about critical editions of classical pieces, because I've only seen original notation in those editions. (Frankly, it surprises me to learn an F-transposed part might be available from, e.g., Bärenreiter.) Nobody said that such a part was available. I *asked* if the part sets for modern critical editions included parts other than the original notation or not, but nobody seems to know. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
I know you were asking about horns, but a flute/recorder friend of mine mentioned in passing that the Barenreiter edition of Handel's Water Music has the flute part( (in the G major suite) in the original French violin clef and it was for a flute tuned to G. She hated the fact she was having to do three types of transposing on the fly: the clef, the key, and then the octave required. Thanks Kim On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote: I agree, nobody said it. It was surprising to think about the possibility considering who I would have thought the target market for a critical edition might be. I can state that many performance materials based on critical editions do not include F-transposed horn parts. (My knowledge is mainly limited to chamber music by Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven, etc.) However, based on another comment in this thread it appears that some pieces do come with F-transposed parts. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
Pro horn players prefer the original parts, yes, but that flute part is a whole different ball o' worms. Slip a transposed part in there, goodness! Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC VISIT US at rayhortonmusic.com On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.comwrote: I know you were asking about horns, but a flute/recorder friend of mine mentioned in passing that the Barenreiter edition of Handel's Water Music has the flute part( (in the G major suite) in the original French violin clef and it was for a flute tuned to G. She hated the fact she was having to do three types of transposing on the fly: the clef, the key, and then the octave required. Thanks Kim On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote: I agree, nobody said it. It was surprising to think about the possibility considering who I would have thought the target market for a critical edition might be. I can state that many performance materials based on critical editions do not include F-transposed horn parts. (My knowledge is mainly limited to chamber music by Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven, etc.) However, based on another comment in this thread it appears that some pieces do come with F-transposed parts. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bill Duncan font questions
Download FontExplorer (free version) and use it to clear the font cache. I suspect that will fix your problem. JB Sent from my iPhone using my thumbs w/out a spellchecker On Oct 30, 2010, at 6:00 PM, jjtk...@gmail.com jjtk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I recently purchased Finale Productivity 5.0 from NPC Imaging, and I have a few questions for the group. I use FinMac2011, OSX 10.5.8 on a MacBook Pro. I wanted to get the Bill Duncan fonts and chord library because they look so nice, but I’m having some problems getting them to work. My problem is with chord symbols. I loaded the Bill Duncan chord library and all the chords now show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog box, and they look great onscreen. But the chord suffix and alterations do not print, preview or show up in PDF files (the chord symbol itself, does print, preview and pdf). The chord fonts in Document Options are set correctly for the Bill Duncan fonts. Nick Carter offers a money-back guarantee, but I'm not ready to give up yet. Fonts installed in: Macintosh HD/Library/Fonts/ Fonts are named as I got them from npc: FPChordSuffix.otf, FPChordSymbol.otf and FPChordSymbolSubtext.otf .fan files are here: /user/Library/Application Support/Make Music/Finale 2011/Font Annotation/ Here's a clue. If I create a chord symbol in MSWord (doesn't everyone?), and format with the Bill Duncan fonts, they view, print, preview and pdf just fine. Another clue. In order to load the chord symbol library, I opened a file called ChordSym-Suf.mus (as directed) containing the BD chord library, and saved the chords library. I loaded it into my Finale document, and all chords show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog. However, in the ChordSym-Suf.mus file the default music font BD Notes no longer exists in FP5.0. Changing it to Maestro breaks the chord symbols. The latest version of Finale Productivity 5.0 has OpenType fonts now, but they're named differently than the older versions (both PS and TT). Also included are many templates created in Fin2003 and Fin2004, which don't work in Fin2011. It seems that the Bill Duncan fonts, or most of them, have been updated to OpenType, but nothing else in FP5.0 has been updated since Fin2003/2004. Hoping somebody else has installed this in later versions of Finale and can help this still-novice user out! BTW, thanks to everyone to weighed in on the large format printer thread. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
At 7:21 PM -0400 10/30/10, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I know you were asking about horns, but a flute/recorder friend of mine mentioned in passing that the Barenreiter edition of Handel's Water Music has the flute part( (in the G major suite) in the original French violin clef and it was for a flute tuned to G. She hated the fact she was having to do three types of transposing on the fly: the clef, the key, and then the octave required. Using the original clef (if that's what it is) is a throwback to the older editing practice, so I wonder when that edition was made. Editions from the past 50 years or so would tend to have modern clefs, but give an incipit showing what the original was. But there's always a bit of a question regarding the word flute in Handel's music. In fact it usually meant recorder, while traverso would have indicated the cross-flute. And the French violin clef was commonly used to transpose music for one instrument to the other, since the lowest notes of the traverso and the treble recorder were a minor 3rd apart. A suite in G/B minor suggests traverso, sure enough, but an instrument in G?!!! Possible but highly unlikely. That would make me think it was for recorder, if your friend is judging from the lowest written note being a G4. Modern flute players tend to ignore these distinctions, and assume that ALL music using the word flute was intended for their instrument. And they are often wrong. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bill Duncan font questions
Hey JB, Thanks for the suggestion. I did that but no luck. It seems like something in Finale since the fonts work in other programs. John On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 7:53 PM, JRB j...@blanemusic.com wrote: Download FontExplorer (free version) and use it to clear the font cache. I suspect that will fix your problem. JB Sent from my iPhone using my thumbs w/out a spellchecker On Oct 30, 2010, at 6:00 PM, jjtk...@gmail.com jjtk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I recently purchased Finale Productivity 5.0 from NPC Imaging, and I have a few questions for the group. I use FinMac2011, OSX 10.5.8 on a MacBook Pro. I wanted to get the Bill Duncan fonts and chord library because they look so nice, but I’m having some problems getting them to work. My problem is with chord symbols. I loaded the Bill Duncan chord library and all the chords now show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog box, and they look great onscreen. But the chord suffix and alterations do not print, preview or show up in PDF files (the chord symbol itself, does print, preview and pdf). The chord fonts in Document Options are set correctly for the Bill Duncan fonts. Nick Carter offers a money-back guarantee, but I'm not ready to give up yet. Fonts installed in: Macintosh HD/Library/Fonts/ Fonts are named as I got them from npc: FPChordSuffix.otf, FPChordSymbol.otf and FPChordSymbolSubtext.otf .fan files are here: /user/Library/Application Support/Make Music/Finale 2011/Font Annotation/ Here's a clue. If I create a chord symbol in MSWord (doesn't everyone?), and format with the Bill Duncan fonts, they view, print, preview and pdf just fine. Another clue. In order to load the chord symbol library, I opened a file called ChordSym-Suf.mus (as directed) containing the BD chord library, and saved the chords library. I loaded it into my Finale document, and all chords show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog. However, in the ChordSym-Suf.mus file the default music font BD Notes no longer exists in FP5.0. Changing it to Maestro breaks the chord symbols. The latest version of Finale Productivity 5.0 has OpenType fonts now, but they're named differently than the older versions (both PS and TT). Also included are many templates created in Fin2003 and Fin2004, which don't work in Fin2011. It seems that the Bill Duncan fonts, or most of them, have been updated to OpenType, but nothing else in FP5.0 has been updated since Fin2003/2004. Hoping somebody else has installed this in later versions of Finale and can help this still-novice user out! BTW, thanks to everyone to weighed in on the large format printer thread. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bill Duncan font questions
Huh, that is not what the fonts used to be named. And they were not otf Yes, Bill dropped the BD Notes because it was basically Maestro with a few things added which were now in other fonts he was making, like Articulations. And I think there was the grey area of it being pretty much Maestro if it was really legal for him to get selling it. Anyhow, sounds like the person who owns the Fonts didn't update any of the Finale files? Changing the chords is easy enough. You need to go into Document Options, Fonts and Chord Symbol and change them to whatever you want. I use ChordSym 16. For updating the library, create a default document, go to the chord suffix selection box, clear out all the stuff in there, then load Bill's chord library, go back to the chord suffix selection box, and edit one of them. It should be in the right font, and if not, then write down what it is, like Arial 14 or something, then go to Document, Data Check, Font Utility and replace the Arial (or whatever) font to Bill's font. And repeat until everything looks good, then save that library. On a side note, I always had problems have TWO versions of Bill's fonts loaded at the same time, like the Postscript and Truetype. They would display funny or not print correctly. I think I dumped all the Postscript fonts and just went with TrueType.though that doesn't sound like your problem.. On Oct 30, 2010, at 4:53 PM, JRB wrote: Download FontExplorer (free version) and use it to clear the font cache. I suspect that will fix your problem. JB Sent from my iPhone using my thumbs w/out a spellchecker On Oct 30, 2010, at 6:00 PM, jjtk...@gmail.com jjtk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I recently purchased Finale Productivity 5.0 from NPC Imaging, and I have a few questions for the group. I use FinMac2011, OSX 10.5.8 on a MacBook Pro. I wanted to get the Bill Duncan fonts and chord library because they look so nice, but I’m having some problems getting them to work. My problem is with chord symbols. I loaded the Bill Duncan chord library and all the chords now show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog box, and they look great onscreen. But the chord suffix and alterations do not print, preview or show up in PDF files (the chord symbol itself, does print, preview and pdf). The chord fonts in Document Options are set correctly for the Bill Duncan fonts. Nick Carter offers a money-back guarantee, but I'm not ready to give up yet. Fonts installed in: Macintosh HD/Library/Fonts/ Fonts are named as I got them from npc: FPChordSuffix.otf, FPChordSymbol.otf and FPChordSymbolSubtext.otf .fan files are here: /user/Library/Application Support/Make Music/Finale 2011/Font Annotation/ Here's a clue. If I create a chord symbol in MSWord (doesn't everyone?), and format with the Bill Duncan fonts, they view, print, preview and pdf just fine. Another clue. In order to load the chord symbol library, I opened a file called ChordSym-Suf.mus (as directed) containing the BD chord library, and saved the chords library. I loaded it into my Finale document, and all chords show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog. However, in the ChordSym-Suf.mus file the default music font BD Notes no longer exists in FP5.0. Changing it to Maestro breaks the chord symbols. The latest version of Finale Productivity 5.0 has OpenType fonts now, but they're named differently than the older versions (both PS and TT). Also included are many templates created in Fin2003 and Fin2004, which don't work in Fin2011. It seems that the Bill Duncan fonts, or most of them, have been updated to OpenType, but nothing else in FP5.0 has been updated since Fin2003/2004. Hoping somebody else has installed this in later versions of Finale and can help this still-novice user out! BTW, thanks to everyone to weighed in on the large format printer thread. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale NOT Sent from my iSomething ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] {Spam} OT: Historical Horn Notation Question
As far as horn transpositions go, the worst are not the Brahms parts in H. The worst are the Wagner parts that change transposition every few bars - part of the early experimentation in which Wagner treated valves as quick-change crooks. In the first 16 bars of the first horn part of the famous Prelude to Act 3 of _Lohengrin_ there are five transposition changes. And, yes, pros prefer to read the original version of that, also, as a rule. Sure, nowadays there is no reason not to include the transposed F horn parts in any new printed editions, but teachers should continue to teach the players to grow and not use them. Same with Bb trumpets, and bass clef trombone parts. The players need to be able to read the thousands of editions out there which do not have substitute parts, unless they want to put severe limits on their musical contribution for their entire musical lives. Both treble and bass clef euphonium parts are always necessary in band - but that's a different tradition. Good players will want to learn the other clef, so more music will be available to them, but others can continue happily playing in bands only with their beginning clef if they wish. Actually, a euphonium player benefits by learning bass, treble (Bb), treble (C), and tenor clefs, as well as F horn transposition. That way he or she can jump into many situations in which a euphonium part is not included but in which a horn or some other instrument is missing, can read solo music for voice or any other instrument, etc. etc. One can get old just waiting around for that occasional euphonium gig. Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC VISIT US at rayhortonmusic.com On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 1:00 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 11:29 PM -0500 10/29/10, Robert Patterson wrote: I don't personally know a single professional horn player who works from F-transposed parts. Yes, and that's what the folks on the jazz and commercial side need to understand. Part of an orchestral horn player's pre-professional education is working through the orchestral excerpts books and learning to play from original notation in any reasonable transposition at sight. The worst I ever ran into was in high school, when I was still a horn player, and was playing 4th in a university conducting class orchestra. One of the Brahms symphonies has horn in B, a tritone transposition!!! (And yes, it was REALLY for horn in B, or H, and not in Bb basso!) My problem is that in our small-town-with-a-large-university, when I recruit horn players for our chamber orchestra they are often band players, not orchestral players, and they have NOT learned to transpose from original parts, so I've had to learn where to obtain the transposed parts (and sometimes to transpose them myself for those players). But it's like the need to provide euphonium parts in band arrangements in both bass clef and transposed treble clef. You can argue all you want about why it shouldn't be necessary, but in practice it is, and we give the players what they want to see. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bill Duncan font questions
Thanks Eric, that fixed it. The problem is indeed with the fact that the new OpenType fonts have different names than the old PS and TT fonts. None of the .mus files that come with the Productivity 5.0 package (and thus their chord libraries) have been updated with the new font names. Once I replaced the old names everything worked. Thanks. John On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Huh, that is not what the fonts used to be named. And they were not otf Yes, Bill dropped the BD Notes because it was basically Maestro with a few things added which were now in other fonts he was making, like Articulations. And I think there was the grey area of it being pretty much Maestro if it was really legal for him to get selling it. Anyhow, sounds like the person who owns the Fonts didn't update any of the Finale files? Changing the chords is easy enough. You need to go into Document Options, Fonts and Chord Symbol and change them to whatever you want. I use ChordSym 16. For updating the library, create a default document, go to the chord suffix selection box, clear out all the stuff in there, then load Bill's chord library, go back to the chord suffix selection box, and edit one of them. It should be in the right font, and if not, then write down what it is, like Arial 14 or something, then go to Document, Data Check, Font Utility and replace the Arial (or whatever) font to Bill's font. And repeat until everything looks good, then save that library. On a side note, I always had problems have TWO versions of Bill's fonts loaded at the same time, like the Postscript and Truetype. They would display funny or not print correctly. I think I dumped all the Postscript fonts and just went with TrueType.though that doesn't sound like your problem.. On Oct 30, 2010, at 4:53 PM, JRB wrote: Download FontExplorer (free version) and use it to clear the font cache. I suspect that will fix your problem. JB Sent from my iPhone using my thumbs w/out a spellchecker On Oct 30, 2010, at 6:00 PM, jjtk...@gmail.com jjtk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I recently purchased Finale Productivity 5.0 from NPC Imaging, and I have a few questions for the group. I use FinMac2011, OSX 10.5.8 on a MacBook Pro. I wanted to get the Bill Duncan fonts and chord library because they look so nice, but I’m having some problems getting them to work. My problem is with chord symbols. I loaded the Bill Duncan chord library and all the chords now show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog box, and they look great onscreen. But the chord suffix and alterations do not print, preview or show up in PDF files (the chord symbol itself, does print, preview and pdf). The chord fonts in Document Options are set correctly for the Bill Duncan fonts. Nick Carter offers a money-back guarantee, but I'm not ready to give up yet. Fonts installed in: Macintosh HD/Library/Fonts/ Fonts are named as I got them from npc: FPChordSuffix.otf, FPChordSymbol.otf and FPChordSymbolSubtext.otf .fan files are here: /user/Library/Application Support/Make Music/Finale 2011/Font Annotation/ Here's a clue. If I create a chord symbol in MSWord (doesn't everyone?), and format with the Bill Duncan fonts, they view, print, preview and pdf just fine. Another clue. In order to load the chord symbol library, I opened a file called ChordSym-Suf.mus (as directed) containing the BD chord library, and saved the chords library. I loaded it into my Finale document, and all chords show up fine in the Chord Definition dialog. However, in the ChordSym-Suf.mus file the default music font BD Notes no longer exists in FP5.0. Changing it to Maestro breaks the chord symbols. The latest version of Finale Productivity 5.0 has OpenType fonts now, but they're named differently than the older versions (both PS and TT). Also included are many templates created in Fin2003 and Fin2004, which don't work in Fin2011. It seems that the Bill Duncan fonts, or most of them, have been updated to OpenType, but nothing else in FP5.0 has been updated since Fin2003/2004. Hoping somebody else has installed this in later versions of Finale and can help this still-novice user out! BTW, thanks to everyone to weighed in on the large format printer thread. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale NOT Sent from my iSomething ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Bill Duncan font questions
Enjoy. It's good stuff that package. On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:42 PM, jjtk...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks Eric, that fixed it. The problem is indeed with the fact that the new OpenType fonts have different names than the old PS and TT fonts. None of the .mus files that come with the Productivity 5.0 package (and thus their chord libraries) have been updated with the new font names. Once I replaced the old names everything worked. Thanks. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
