Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Tim Moore]

On 10/06/2009 03:14 PM, Curtis Olson wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Tim Moore  > wrote:
> 
> "3D panel" does not mean that you need a 3D view of the cockpit to
> see the
> instruments.
> 
> 
> I guess I've never seen an example of anyone configuring an orthographic
> view in FlightGear, but I'm sure it's doable.  Do we have configuration
> level support for this, or would it be a coding exercise?  The other
It's supported by the camera configuration code that also implements multiple
cameras. There is some additional coding to make this fully practical for 
cockpit panels: an orthographic view is still a view of the entire scene. You
can set the far clipping plane to avoid rendering the whole outside world, but
that is still forcing the OSG culling code to do a lot of work. If there is a
way to "tag" 3d geometry that is part of a panel, then it will be very easy
to render only that geometry in the view.
> part is that the designer would need to carefully align the panel
> surface orthogonal to the view direction to assure there is no warping
> of the panel relative to the view plane, again, should be a relatively
> simple task, but would need to be done and need to be thought about.  So
> it's definitely a solvable problem, but there are several extra steps,
> and I haven't seen an example to work from within FlightGear.  And
> generally, if it's never been done before, the first person blazing the
> path will typically run into some unexpected surprises.
True enough.

Tim
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Curt.
> -- 
> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [PATCH] 3D Clouds update

[Vadym Kukhtin]

Nope, same fps...

But clouds look much better; thanks Stuart!


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [PATCH] 3D Clouds update

[Scott Hamilton]

On Tue, 2009-10-06 at 22:06 -0400, William Harrison wrote:

> Maybe it's just me, but has anyone noticed a dramatic performance
> decrease with 3d clouds after this patch?


  yep, from 30fps to 2fps...


  S.




> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Durk Talsma 
> wrote:
> 
> On Thursday 01 October 2009 06:22:15 am Durk Talsma wrote:
> > Hi Stuart,
> >
> > Unless somebody else beats me to it, I'll try to commit this
> patch this
> > weekend.
> 
> > > Once it is applied, I'll update the appropriate README
> documentation
> > > myself.
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay done. Have fun with the documentation :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Durk
> 
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [PATCH] 3D Clouds update

[William Harrison]

Maybe it's just me, but has anyone noticed a dramatic performance decrease
with 3d clouds after this patch?

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Durk Talsma  wrote:

> On Thursday 01 October 2009 06:22:15 am Durk Talsma wrote:
> > Hi Stuart,
> >
> > Unless somebody else beats me to it, I'll try to commit this patch this
> > weekend.
> > > Once it is applied, I'll update the appropriate README documentation
> > > myself.
> > >
>
>
> Okay done. Have fun with the documentation :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Durk
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Rob Shearman, Jr.]

Curt Olson:
"{...}  purely from a humorous/hypothetical perspective: if anyone understands
how adsense work, any time one of us clicks on his ad, it costs him
money, but google has very sophisticated filters to catch this any many
other kinds of abuse so a single person can't do much on that front.

"I can't bring myself to be this sleazy and it wouldn't reflect
positively on the flightgear project (but it's fun to think about) :-)
so what if I could add some text that says: if the ad in this box is
from xyz.com,
click on it as many times as possible, email all your contacts to also
click on it, but make sure you don't buy anything.  I shouldn't even
think things like that, let alone post them ... !"

You shouldn't, but you did, and I probably shouldn't have laughed out loud in 
an evil manner, yet I did!  :-)

 Robert M. Shearman, Jr.
Transit Operations Supervisor,
University of Maryland Department of Transportation
also known as rm...@umd.edu

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New Sound system committed

[Alan Teeder]

Erik

Sorry, I gave the wrong missing name -- I should have written alutGetError,
as this is not in the older alut.h (or al.h or alc.h).
 
Apologies for the confusion.

Alan

-Original Message-
From: Erik Hofman [mailto:e...@ehofman.com] 
Sent: 06 October 2009 20:48
To: FlightGear developers discussions
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] New Sound system committed



Alan Teeder wrote:
> Thanks for fixing this. 
> 
> However the pre-built libraries referenced in README.msvc do have an old
> version of alut.h which is missing the alcGetError and associated
> definitions. I don´t know who maintains these useful archives.

It's not alut.h that defines these functions but it's alc.h
Maybe you need to include it in the project files somewhere?

Erik



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Detlef Faber]

Am Dienstag, den 06.10.2009, 13:58 -0500 schrieb Curtis Olson:
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Detlef Faber 
> wrote:
> The german section of Openoffice.org contains such a warning
> too. I
> would really appreciate this. And we could stop the
> advertising of this
> product on the FlightGear site.
> 
> I can look into it, but I'll say this purely from a
> humorous/hypothetical perspective: if anyone understands how adsense
> work, any time one of us clicks on his ad, it costs him money, but
> google has very sophisticated filters to catch this any many other
> kinds of abuse so a single person can't do much on that front.
> 
Adsense offers the option to list websites of competitors that shall not
appear on the own site.


> I can't bring myself to be this sleazy and it wouldn't reflect
> positively on the flightgear project (but it's fun to think about) :-)
> so what if I could add some text that says: if the ad in this box is
> from xyz.com, click on it as many times as possible, email all your
> contacts to also click on it, but make sure you don't buy anything.  I
> shouldn't even think things like that, let alone post them ... !
> 
This would clearly be a violation of Googles AdSense Rules. 

But I guess a note to Users of FlightProsim to let them know their
rights (e.g to legally give a copy of this product to everyone who might
want one) or spread where to get new versions for free would be
perfectly legal.

Greetings


> Curt.
> 
> -- 
> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New Sound system committed

[Erik Hofman]

Alan Teeder wrote:
> Thanks for fixing this. 
> 
> However the pre-built libraries referenced in README.msvc do have an old
> version of alut.h which is missing the alcGetError and associated
> definitions. I don´t know who maintains these useful archives.

It's not alut.h that defines these functions but it's alc.h
Maybe you need to include it in the project files somewhere?

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Curtis Olson]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Detlef Faber  wrote:

> The german section of Openoffice.org contains such a warning too. I
> would really appreciate this. And we could stop the advertising of this
> product on the FlightGear site.
>

I can look into it, but I'll say this purely from a humorous/hypothetical
perspective: if anyone understands how adsense work, any time one of us
clicks on his ad, it costs him money, but google has very sophisticated
filters to catch this any many other kinds of abuse so a single person can't
do much on that front.

I can't bring myself to be this sleazy and it wouldn't reflect positively on
the flightgear project (but it's fun to think about) :-) so what if I could
add some text that says: if the ad in this box is from xyz.com, click on it
as many times as possible, email all your contacts to also click on it, but
make sure you don't buy anything.  I shouldn't even think things like that,
let alone post them ... !

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Detlef Faber]

Am Dienstag, den 06.10.2009, 06:45 -0500 schrieb Jon S. Berndt:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > To answer Jon S. Berndt here I like the idea of a competetion and I'm
> > sure everyone else here too. Even there is only a TShirt to win...
> > 
> > But I don't like when this competetion is made by a man who apparently
> > try earn money with others work! If he would just say hey, this is
> > Flightgear and I did some improvements- but he renamed it, and nothing
> > on the named Homepage makes clear what's really inside.
> 
> This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on the main page of
> their web site, there is this:
> 
> "This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight Gear project.
> Further information available in our Developers Area"
> 
> > I wonder what would happen if I take JSBSim, rename it to HHSim, sell
> > this and count me to the "HHSim-Developer-Team" using pics stolen from
> > other userHow would the JSBSim-developers react?
> 
> Trust me, I was the first one to write to this guy personally and ask him
> the same questions. I pointed out that if one is selling a commercial
> product, that company names ("Boeing", in particular, but the others too)
> could not be used; that copyrighted pictures from the FlightGear web site
> could not be used, and that it was in very poor taste not to mention that
> this was FlightGear and mention those who worked so hard to put this
> together.
> 
> There's also nothing stopping anyone from making a web page (or mentioning
> on the FlightGear main page) that some people are selling what you can
> download for free right there at flightgear.org. 

The german section of Openoffice.org contains such a warning too. I
would really appreciate this. And we could stop the advertising of this
product on the FlightGear site.

>  There's also nothing
> stopping the FlightGear team from packaging up a commercial package and
> selling it, is there?
> 
We're already selling Scenery DVDs. Might be the next step?


> The question is, is FlightProSim a legal product? I suspect it is. I do
> think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would rather see someone
> come out and say plainly up front that the product IS FlightGear, and that
> it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added value in some way
> and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair cost and donating
> some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web site (or some
> other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear developers have donated
> their time for so long).
> 
> Wishful thinking 
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Detlef Faber]

Am Dienstag, den 06.10.2009, 15:44 + schrieb Heiko Schulz:
> Hello,
> 
> 
> > This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on
> > the main page of
> > their web site, there is this:
> > 
> > "This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight
> > Gear project.
> > Further information available in our Developers Area"
> 
> Link? I didn't found this...
> > 
It is really there, but no sane person would spell FlightGear like
this. 


> > I do
> > think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would
> > rather see someone
> > come out and say plainly up front that the product IS
> > FlightGear, and that
> > it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added
> > value in some way
> > and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair
> > cost and donating
> > some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web
> > site (or some
> > other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear
> > developers have donated
> > their time for so long).
> > 
> > Wishful thinking 
> > 
> > Jon
> 
> Agree
> 
> 
>   
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] GPS / route-manager landing

[James Turner]

Thanks for the reports, I'll try to find some portable solutions to  
theses issues ... probably involving boost :)


Regards,
James

On 6 Oct 2009, at 17:38, Alan Teeder wrote:


Also VC90 also does not ”this” at line 70 of route_mgr.cxx. :-

Compiling...
route_mgr.cxx
..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(70) : warning C4355: 'this' :  
used in base member initializer list
..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(229) : error C3861: 'time':  
identifier not found
..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(233) : error C3861: 'time':  
identifier not found
..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(234) : error C3861: 'difftime':  
identifier not found
Build log was saved at "file://d:\fg\source\projects\VC90\FlightGear\Win32\Release\BuildLog.htm 
"


Alan
From: Nicolas Quijano [mailto:nquij...@gmail.com]
Sent: 06 October 2009 17:22
To: FlightGear developers discussions
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] GPS / route-manager landing

Hi all, this doesn't build on windows, it can't find the time symbol  
referenced at line 229 and 233 in route_mgr.cxx.

Missing header ?

Also, there is a reference to std::strncasecmp in positioned.cxx  
around line 820, which is also not available in windows (at least,  
not here).
Since it's dealing with c strings, I've added locally an #ifdef  
WIN32 check which uses_stricmp instead in this case.

Don't know how you want to deal with this,



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] RSync for TerraSync down

[Daniel Vigano]

Sorry, but I can't use SVN because I use a old FG version. (1.0.0; It's
in the ubuntu repository.)
@Curt
I just can say that it don't work since more than 3 weeks.
At this time I wanted to use it for the first time.

Daniel

Am Dienstag, den 06.10.2009, 10:12 -0700 schrieb Alex Perry:
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Martin Spott  wrote:
> > Please use 'terrasync -S' instead in order to pull the most recent
> > Scenery via SVN.
> > Note that the directory trees are not 'compatible', you'll have either
> > to set up a new directory from scratch or simply purge the old one,
> 
> Start a new directory for svn next to the existing one (so everything
> gets fetched again), but don't delete your existing scenery.  Instead,
> list both directories on the flightgear command line so that, if svn
> hasn't downloaded an area yet, the simulation will use whatever you'd
> previously fetched using rsync.  That way, there is no hurry with
> downloading Martin's new scenery data before you can fly again.
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] RSync for TerraSync down

[Alex Perry]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Martin Spott  wrote:
> Please use 'terrasync -S' instead in order to pull the most recent
> Scenery via SVN.
> Note that the directory trees are not 'compatible', you'll have either
> to set up a new directory from scratch or simply purge the old one,

Start a new directory for svn next to the existing one (so everything
gets fetched again), but don't delete your existing scenery.  Instead,
list both directories on the flightgear command line so that, if svn
hasn't downloaded an area yet, the simulation will use whatever you'd
previously fetched using rsync.  That way, there is no hurry with
downloading Martin's new scenery data before you can fly again.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] RSync for TerraSync down

[Martin Spott]

Daniel Vigano wrote:

> if I want use TerraSync with RSync this message appears:

Please use 'terrasync -S' instead in order to pull the most recent
Scenery via SVN.
Note that the directory trees are not 'compatible', you'll have either
to set up a new directory from scratch or simply purge the old one,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] RSync for TerraSync down

[Curtis Olson]

We've got a round robin setup for scenery.flightgear.org

$ host scenery.flightgear.org
scenery.flightgear.org has address 128.101.141.136
scenery.flightgear.org has address 67.202.82.26

128.101.141.136 has it's rsync server running, but maybe 67.202.82.26 needs
to have it's rsync daemon checked?

I'm not sure who maintains the machine, but if it's no longer online and
being maintained, we can take it out of the rotation.

Curt.


On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Daniel Vigano wrote:

> Hello,
>
> if I want use TerraSync with RSync this message appears:
>
> rsync: failed to connect to scenery.flightgear.org: Connection timed out
> (110)
> rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(124)
> [receiver=3.0.5]
>
> I think the RSync server is down.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] RSync for TerraSync down

[Daniel Vigano]

Hello,

if I want use TerraSync with RSync this message appears:

rsync: failed to connect to scenery.flightgear.org: Connection timed out
(110)
rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(124)
[receiver=3.0.5]

I think the RSync server is down.

Daniel


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New Sound system committed

[Alan Teeder]

Thanks for fixing this. 

However the pre-built libraries referenced in README.msvc do have an old
version of alut.h which is missing the alcGetError and associated
definitions. I don´t know who maintains these useful archives.

Alan

-Original Message-
From: Alan Teeder [mailto:ajtee...@v-twin.org.uk] 
Sent: 05 October 2009 11:37
To: 'FlightGear developers discussions'
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] New Sound system committed

Sorry to be the messenger, but compilation of soundmgr_openal.cxx and all
flightgear files using soundmgr_openal.hxx fails under VC90.

See attached build log.

I am using the 3rd part libraries as per
flightgear/source/projects/VC90/README.msvc.
 i.e.
(Precompiled librairies and headers for compiling Win32 executables with
VS2008 :
ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/Win32/MSVC/fgfs-win32-VS90-3rdParty
+OSG-20090628.zip)

Same error with more recent fgfs-win32-VS90-3rdParty+OSG-20090820.

Do I need a more recent version of OpenAL?

Alan


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] GPS / route-manager landing

[Alan Teeder]

Also VC90 also does not "this" at line 70 of route_mgr.cxx. :-

 

Compiling...

route_mgr.cxx

..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(70) : warning C4355: 'this' : used in
base member initializer list

..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(229) : error C3861: 'time': identifier
not found

..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(233) : error C3861: 'time': identifier
not found

..\..\..\src\Autopilot\route_mgr.cxx(234) : error C3861: 'difftime':
identifier not found

Build log was saved at
"file://d:\fg\source\projects\VC90\FlightGear\Win32\Release\BuildLog.htm" 

 

Alan

  _  

From: Nicolas Quijano [mailto:nquij...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 06 October 2009 17:22
To: FlightGear developers discussions
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] GPS / route-manager landing

 

Hi all, this doesn't build on windows, it can't find the time symbol
referenced at line 229 and 233 in route_mgr.cxx. 
Missing header ?

Also, there is a reference to std::strncasecmp in positioned.cxx around line
820, which is also not available in windows (at least, not here). 
Since it's dealing with c strings, I've added locally an #ifdef WIN32 check
which uses_stricmp instead in this case. 
Don't know how you want to deal with this, 

Cheers, 
Nic

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 3:59 AM, James Turner  wrote:


On 5 Oct 2009, at 08:33, Dave wrote:

> That all sounds like good stuff.  I'll try and migrate the KLN89
> towards
> using it and depreciating the dclgps stuff - that should give it some
> testing.

Sounds good to me. I've been going through the KLN89 manual, and
there's definitely some more subtle options that will require extra
features / flags (off the top of my head, resuming LEG mode from OBS
mode, and the ability to DTO without recentering the d-bar).

Many things should be achievable with a bit of Nasal glue, obviously
I've tried to make simple building block functionality as much as I
can. If you think an API or design is poor, or missing a feature, let
me know and I'm happy to add it - I'd far rather get the core code
sensible, than have each GPS device work around the same bug!

In terms of API examples, I will be committing a new GPS dialog, which
shows off most of the new features, and will also allow the GPS to be
used in aircraft without real hardware, if we want that. I'm also
going to create a wiki page for the GPS, to document what it can (and
can't do).

Regards,
James




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[Flightgear-devel] A new MPServer

[Daniel Vigano]

Hello @ all mpserver-maintainer,

since today there is a new mpserverver. It's mpserver09.flightgear.org.
Please replay to it!
Thanks!

Daniel Vigano


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] GPS / route-manager landing

[Nicolas Quijano]

Hi all, this doesn't build on windows, it can't find the time symbol
referenced at line 229 and 233 in route_mgr.cxx.
Missing header ?

Also, there is a reference to std::strncasecmp in positioned.cxx around line
820, which is also not available in windows (at least, not here).
Since it's dealing with c strings, I've added locally an #ifdef WIN32 check
which uses_stricmp instead in this case.
Don't know how you want to deal with this,

Cheers,
Nic

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 3:59 AM, James Turner  wrote:

>
> On 5 Oct 2009, at 08:33, Dave wrote:
>
> > That all sounds like good stuff.  I'll try and migrate the KLN89
> > towards
> > using it and depreciating the dclgps stuff - that should give it some
> > testing.
>
> Sounds good to me. I've been going through the KLN89 manual, and
> there's definitely some more subtle options that will require extra
> features / flags (off the top of my head, resuming LEG mode from OBS
> mode, and the ability to DTO without recentering the d-bar).
>
> Many things should be achievable with a bit of Nasal glue, obviously
> I've tried to make simple building block functionality as much as I
> can. If you think an API or design is poor, or missing a feature, let
> me know and I'm happy to add it - I'd far rather get the core code
> sensible, than have each GPS device work around the same bug!
>
> In terms of API examples, I will be committing a new GPS dialog, which
> shows off most of the new features, and will also allow the GPS to be
> used in aircraft without real hardware, if we want that. I'm also
> going to create a wiki page for the GPS, to document what it can (and
> can't do).
>
> Regards,
> James
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Heiko Schulz]

Hello,


> This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on
> the main page of
> their web site, there is this:
> 
> "This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight
> Gear project.
> Further information available in our Developers Area"

Link? I didn't found this...
> 
> I do
> think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would
> rather see someone
> come out and say plainly up front that the product IS
> FlightGear, and that
> it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added
> value in some way
> and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair
> cost and donating
> some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web
> site (or some
> other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear
> developers have donated
> their time for so long).
> 
> Wishful thinking 
> 
> Jon

Agree


  

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Curtis Olson]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Tim Moore  wrote:

> "3D panel" does not mean that you need a 3D view of the cockpit to see the
> instruments.
>

I guess I've never seen an example of anyone configuring an orthographic
view in FlightGear, but I'm sure it's doable.  Do we have configuration
level support for this, or would it be a coding exercise?  The other part is
that the designer would need to carefully align the panel surface orthogonal
to the view direction to assure there is no warping of the panel relative to
the view plane, again, should be a relatively simple task, but would need to
be done and need to be thought about.  So it's definitely a solvable
problem, but there are several extra steps, and I haven't seen an example to
work from within FlightGear.  And generally, if it's never been done before,
the first person blazing the path will typically run into some unexpected
surprises.

Regards,

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Tim Moore]

On 10/06/2009 02:41 PM, Thomas Betka wrote:
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote:
>>>
>>
>> We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to  
>> achieve, and
>> having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only  
>> possible to
>> achieve it with "3D" instruments, but that it would be easier,  
>> quicker and
>> more flexible.
>>
>> You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things  
>> any
>> sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss  
>> those
>> who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots.
>>
>> AJ
> 
> 
> Yes, now there you go AJ...typical response that makes some folks on  
> this developer's list so much fun to work with.
> 
In fact, AJ is fun to work with; I'm sorry that he's not around much
anymore.
...
> But as for a 3D cockpit, I don't believe that the FAA is going to  
> approve a product that requires the pilot (user) to have to pan around  
> the cockpit (or a panel) using a mouse, while in the act of simulated  
> flight. Are you flying an aircraft, or using a mouse? So "suboptimal"  
> or not, as far as I (and several industry folks I know) can tell,  
> that's what the FAA will approve; certainly not for a PC-based  
> Advanced Aircraft Training Device.
> 
"3D panel" does not mean that you need a 3D view of the cockpit to see the
instruments.

> Oh, by the way:  "...it would be easier, quicker and more flexible"?  
> LOL!
> 
> Now who is dismissing whom as an uncomprehending idiot?
> 
Good question; I must be missing the joke that's causing you to LOL.

Tim

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Tim Moore]

On 10/06/2009 01:51 PM, Curtis Olson wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote:
> 
> On Monday 05 October 2009 22:34:01 Thomas Betka wrote:
> >I really didn't hear many
> > people even mention the IFR training opportunity that is being missed
> > with FG; shoot, most people I talked to 1-2 years ago (when I was
> > trying to learn how to modify the 2D panel in the 172) couldn't
> > understand why I was even wasting my time by not going 3D!
> 
> We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to
> achieve, and
> having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only
> possible to
> achieve it with "3D" instruments, but that it would be easier,
> quicker and
> more flexible.
> 
> You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any
> sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss
> those
> who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots.
> 
> 
> How about precise orthogonal placement and sizing of the instruments on
> the screen down to pixel level fine tuning so that you can draw them
> exactly in the right place to show through a panel cutout?
> 
> http://www.atcflightsim.com/products/820/Link/810M_001.html
> 
> With 3d instruments you have an infinite variety of head positions
> relative to instrument positions, etc.
> 
That depends on the camera. You can certainly specify an orthographic camera
that has a fixed view of the instruments...
> With a 2d panel you can adjust a number in the placement xml file and
> reload the panel on the fly.  You can even do that over an ssh
> connection with remote "eyes" giving feedback over the phone.
> 
... and supports positioning the instrument in an xml file down to the
millimeter level (and beyond).

I don't want to oversell the 3D panels as I haven't worked much with 2D
or 3D panels and I don't know for sure that 3D panels support everything
you want, but the things you mention here are non-issues.

Tim
> I actually don't see how the additional layer of complexity involved
> with passing all the geometry through an extra transform, combined with
> requiring the use of a 3d modeling tool makes 3d panels easier to use,
> easier to develop, and visually more precise than 2d panels.  (There
> could be a discussion of capability differences, but so far the 2d
> panels have had all the capability I've needed for my own projects.)
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Curt.
> -- 
> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Thomas Betka]

On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote:
>>
>
> We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to  
> achieve, and
> having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only  
> possible to
> achieve it with "3D" instruments, but that it would be easier,  
> quicker and
> more flexible.
>
> You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things  
> any
> sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss  
> those
> who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots.
>
> AJ


Yes, now there you go AJ...typical response that makes some folks on  
this developer's list so much fun to work with.

I am sorry that you feel I've apparently dismissed you as an  
"uncomprehending idiot." Are you? I've never heard that, and certainly  
did not and *would not* make that assumption. But were you in the IRC  
channels so many times when I was asking about reconfiguring a panel,  
only to have to answer question after question as to why I was  
"wasting my time" making a 2D panel? Hey, but everyone is entitled to  
their own opinion.

But as for a 3D cockpit, I don't believe that the FAA is going to  
approve a product that requires the pilot (user) to have to pan around  
the cockpit (or a panel) using a mouse, while in the act of simulated  
flight. Are you flying an aircraft, or using a mouse? So "suboptimal"  
or not, as far as I (and several industry folks I know) can tell,  
that's what the FAA will approve; certainly not for a PC-based  
Advanced Aircraft Training Device.

Oh, by the way:  "...it would be easier, quicker and more flexible"?  
LOL!

Now who is dismissing whom as an uncomprehending idiot?

TB

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Curtis Olson]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote:

> On Monday 05 October 2009 22:34:01 Thomas Betka wrote:
> >I really didn't hear many
> > people even mention the IFR training opportunity that is being missed
> > with FG; shoot, most people I talked to 1-2 years ago (when I was
> > trying to learn how to modify the 2D panel in the 172) couldn't
> > understand why I was even wasting my time by not going 3D!
>
> We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to achieve, and
> having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only possible
> to
> achieve it with "3D" instruments, but that it would be easier, quicker and
> more flexible.
>
> You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any
> sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss those
> who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots.
>

How about precise orthogonal placement and sizing of the instruments on the
screen down to pixel level fine tuning so that you can draw them exactly in
the right place to show through a panel cutout?

http://www.atcflightsim.com/products/820/Link/810M_001.html

With 3d instruments you have an infinite variety of head positions relative
to instrument positions, etc.

With a 2d panel you can adjust a number in the placement xml file and reload
the panel on the fly.  You can even do that over an ssh connection with
remote "eyes" giving feedback over the phone.

I actually don't see how the additional layer of complexity involved with
passing all the geometry through an extra transform, combined with requiring
the use of a 3d modeling tool makes 3d panels easier to use, easier to
develop, and visually more precise than 2d panels.  (There could be a
discussion of capability differences, but so far the 2d panels have had all
the capability I've needed for my own projects.)

Best regards,

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[Jon S. Berndt]

> Hi,
> 
> To answer Jon S. Berndt here I like the idea of a competetion and I'm
> sure everyone else here too. Even there is only a TShirt to win...
> 
> But I don't like when this competetion is made by a man who apparently
> try earn money with others work! If he would just say hey, this is
> Flightgear and I did some improvements- but he renamed it, and nothing
> on the named Homepage makes clear what's really inside.

This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on the main page of
their web site, there is this:

"This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight Gear project.
Further information available in our Developers Area"

> I wonder what would happen if I take JSBSim, rename it to HHSim, sell
> this and count me to the "HHSim-Developer-Team" using pics stolen from
> other userHow would the JSBSim-developers react?

Trust me, I was the first one to write to this guy personally and ask him
the same questions. I pointed out that if one is selling a commercial
product, that company names ("Boeing", in particular, but the others too)
could not be used; that copyrighted pictures from the FlightGear web site
could not be used, and that it was in very poor taste not to mention that
this was FlightGear and mention those who worked so hard to put this
together.

There's also nothing stopping anyone from making a web page (or mentioning
on the FlightGear main page) that some people are selling what you can
download for free right there at flightgear.org.  There's also nothing
stopping the FlightGear team from packaging up a commercial package and
selling it, is there?

The question is, is FlightProSim a legal product? I suspect it is. I do
think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would rather see someone
come out and say plainly up front that the product IS FlightGear, and that
it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added value in some way
and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair cost and donating
some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web site (or some
other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear developers have donated
their time for so long).

Wishful thinking 

Jon



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers

[AJ MacLeod]

On Monday 05 October 2009 22:34:01 Thomas Betka wrote:
>I really didn't hear many
> people even mention the IFR training opportunity that is being missed
> with FG; shoot, most people I talked to 1-2 years ago (when I was
> trying to learn how to modify the 2D panel in the 172) couldn't
> understand why I was even wasting my time by not going 3D!

We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to achieve, and 
having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only possible to 
achieve it with "3D" instruments, but that it would be easier, quicker and 
more flexible.

You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any 
sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss those 
who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots.

AJ

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