Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[ant elder]

I'd hope we can demonstrate finding consensus rather than using the vote to
resolve this.

I still think forced retirement doesn't seem the right thing in this case
so my -1 stands. In the other thread Alan now seems open to giving them
another try, i've offered to help with that (any other offers of help?),
what have we got to lose with trying that?

   ...ant

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:

> Another favor:
>
> What are the voting rules for this case? I'm assuming that -1 != veto,
> but can anyone point to precedent or documentation I'd be grateful.
>
> A caution: I have been up since 4:15AM and it's now 7:24PM, so I'm
> prone to overlook the obvious.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>  wrote:
> > Le 26 nov. 2012 21:06, "Benson Margulies"  a
> écrit :
> >>
> >> For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
> >> discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
> >> longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC
> >
> > Based on the mentors additional info, and after reviewing the project
> > activity, I am changing my -1 to +1.
> >
> > Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[ant elder]

Great to hear, one month seemed too short to accomplish so much. I'd be
happy to volunteer as another mentor if some fresh eyes will help.

   ...ant

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:32 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:

> If we decide to give the podling another chance I would prefer to give it
> another six months rather than just one month.  I don't think that a lot
> can reasonably be accomplished in one month.   I would also like to see
> some milestones set in those six months.  If the milestones are met or not
> met then the decision at the end of six months will be less contentious.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
> On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
>
> > +1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give
> them
> > another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the
> opportunity
> > to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that
> would mean
> > 3 active peeps in the community).
> >
> > If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Chris
> >
> > On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera 
> wrote:
> >>> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's
> not much
> >>> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with
> the hopes
> >>> that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on
> how to
> >>> grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the
> time to
> >>> work much on the project.
> >>
> >> That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
> >> community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
> >> provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
> >> report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
> >> an alternative implementation. :-)
> >>
> >> As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to
> >> provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the
> >> idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few
> >> months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty
> >> easy one to make.
> >>
> >> Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar
> >> discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of
> >> the community did start working through all the issues and have now
> >> produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards
> >> graduation even though the project is still far below its past
> >> activity.
> >>
> >> [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22
> >>
> >> BR,
> >>
> >> Jukka Zitting
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Bernd Fondermann]

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Jukka Zitting  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>> As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven
>> months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even added
>> a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse the 
>> project
>> with more energy.
>
> That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are
> clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of
> telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather
> ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past
> attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future
> attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of
> doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them.
>
> If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the
> community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and
> 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't
> have too many cycles to spend on the project.
>
> Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to
> keep Chukwa alive at the ASF:
>
> a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to become
> more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be
> sustainable over a longer period of time?  Why? IIUC there was some
> recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way
> to measure the expected increase in activity?
>
> b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What
> concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new
> contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work
> better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community?
> Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases,
> improving project documentation, presenting the project at various
> venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving
> more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see
> also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether
> such efforts are working?
>
> Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy
> (and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going
> through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the
> incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should
> start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community
> activity and diversity.

This is exactly what we did for the last months (years, actually).
Give it yet more time.
Honestly, I don't understand why we should continue in this mode "for
another few months" when it failed for the past years.
Is this the extra-bonus IPMC time?
The legal issues only made it more clear to me that and why this
Incubation failed.

The much I'd love to see Chukwa fly, this is getting ridiculous.

  Bernd

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Eric Johnson]

I'm mostly just a lurker on this list, having thought about bringing a 
project to Apache about 24 months ago[1], realizing we didn't quite have 
the demand/community. Since then I've been lurking, wanting to see 
when/whether it makes sense to attempt it again, reflecting on the state 
of the project I'm working on.


From where I'm sitting, I think the incubator actually should do much 
more here. Big picture - bunch of developers with some cool code come to 
possible the foremost organization for open source projects. They start 
incubating, and discover that part of their incubation process is to 
market themselves to grow their community, and yet not much help arrives 
to do that. On top of that, (a) the developers likely have weak 
marketing skills, (b) don't have a budget for marketing & travel, (c) 
aren't given any tips from others more experienced about what kinds of 
resources they should scare up and which efforts they should focus on first.


I see the incubator process ought to play three roles:

a) teaching the Apache rules/community/approach

b) teaching optimal open source project hygiene (which includes items 
listed below, such as quick turn-around on patch reviews, decent 
website, tutorials, public mailing list discussion) - and actually 
include "grading" on the quality of those items before graduation.


c) assistance and reporting on "marketing". What the heck does this mean?

I think the incubator currently has parts (a) & (b) down. Not so much 
for (c)


For example:

What does it mean to do "press"? What would you include in a press 
release? Where would you send it?


Apache has so many projects, shouldn't it do a monthly "highlight on 
_" report, calling out a top level project, and a project being 
incubated? Automatic publicity! Expect incubating projects to 
participate in one of those "highlight" reports before graduating


What community events should a team focus on? What have teams done in 
the past? What has worked? What hasn't worked? Do we know why it worked 
or didn't work? Is this information being recorded anywhere?


Encourage teams to shamelessly request "reference" users that they can 
post to their websites. Solicit "endorsements" from "neutral" third parties.


I've seen ideas tossed around on the incubator list, but generally 
nothing concrete, so it feels to me like the projects are left drifting 
in the wind, trying to figure this stuff out for themselves.


That's silly, because Apache has such huge name recognition in the 
software world, it should be *easy* to draw attention to incubating 
projects. Except that at the moment, the best way to follow what's 
incubating seems to be hopping on this general list, where you will see 
when projects submit proposals, see them voted on, and see when they get 
in trouble. That's a lot of noise for a small amount of signal. 
Capturing that signal publicly might help bring visibility to the 
projects to follow.


For example, why doesn't the incubator have a twitter feed where the 
status of incubating projects gets reported? Something that everyone can 
follow, and discover when new projects are proposed, when projects are 
at risk, and when they think about graduating?


Recognizing that everyone here has limited resources, I don't think 
what's needed here is much more than a little bit of capturing existing 
known data on a wiki page or three, perhaps a twitter feed, and some 
small amount of nudging by mentors. At least as a start!


Eric.

[1] https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/gXMLProposal

On 11/26/12 8:03 PM, Alan Cabrera wrote:

I wonder if we can ask that incubation proposals include how they intend to get 
the message out there.  What channels are relevant for the project?  I guess 
what are their marketing plans.

Eventually, we'd have a collection of old incubation proposals that new 
podlings could use to garner ideas on how to market and grow their community.


Regards,
Alan

On Nov 26, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:


Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has to be 
someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:

- press
- community events
- mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
- fast turnaround on patch reviews
- regular releases
- decent website
- tutorials
- screencasts
- public discussion (even with self while no community exists)

Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build 
community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write code. 
It's a catch-22.

Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single 
developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. What 
I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above community 
development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential contributors.

I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one could 
argue ComDev should be doc

Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator

[Alex Harui]

Is it ok to close this vote?  It happened over the long holiday weekend in
the US and we only got five total votes, three from our mentors.

Thanks,
-Alex


On 11/22/12 11:57 AM, "Alan Cabrera"  wrote:

> +1 - binding
> 
> Regards,
> Alan
> 
> On Nov 21, 2012, at 11:03 PM, Alex Harui wrote:
> 
>> This is a call for vote to graduate the Apache Flex podling from Apache
>> Incubator.
>> 
>> Apache Flex entered the Incubator in December of 2011. We have made
>> significant progress with the project since moving over to Apache. We have
>> 34 committers listed on our status page at [1] including 6 accepted after
>> the podling was formed. Another 5 committers were recently approved after we
>> started the vote to graduate and are not yet listed on the status page.
>> 
>> We completed two releases (Apache Flex 4.8.0-incubating and Apache Flex SDK
>> Installer 1.0.9-incubating).
>> 
>> The community of Apache Flex is active, healthy and growing and has
>> demonstrated the ability to self-govern using accepted Apache practices.
>> 
>> The Apache Flex community voted overwhelmingly to graduate [2]. You can view
>> the discussion at [3].
>> 
>> We have prepared and reviewed our charter. You can view it at [4].
>> 
>> Please cast your votes:
>> 
>> [ ] +1 Graduate Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator
>> [ ] +0 Indifferent to the graduation status of Apache Flex podling
>> [ ] -1 Reject graduation of Apache Flex podling from Apache Incubator
>> because ...
>> 
>> This vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>> 
>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex
>> [2] http://markmail.org/message/ps3rjgv76vlw4sh5
>> [3] http://markmail.org/thread/ej4z47rr3ba532uv
>> [4] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Graduation+Resolution
>> 
>> -- 
>> Alex Harui
>> Flex SDK Team
>> Adobe Systems, Inc.
>> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> 

-- 
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Mattmann, Chris A (388J)]

Alan, +1 from me.

Cheers,
Chris

On Nov 26, 2012, at 10:32 PM, Alan Cabrera wrote:

> If we decide to give the podling another chance I would prefer to give it 
> another six months rather than just one month.  I don't think that a lot can 
> reasonably be accomplished in one month.   I would also like to see some 
> milestones set in those six months.  If the milestones are met or not met 
> then the decision at the end of six months will be less contentious.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Alan
> 
> On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
> 
>> +1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give them
>> another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the 
>> opportunity
>> to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that would 
>> mean
>> 3 active peeps in the community).
>> 
>> If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire. 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>> 
>> On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
 Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not 
 much
 activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the 
 hopes
 that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how 
 to
 grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to
 work much on the project.
>>> 
>>> That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
>>> community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
>>> provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
>>> report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
>>> an alternative implementation. :-)
>>> 
>>> As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to
>>> provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the
>>> idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few
>>> months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty
>>> easy one to make.
>>> 
>>> Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar
>>> discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of
>>> the community did start working through all the issues and have now
>>> produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards
>>> graduation even though the project is still far below its past
>>> activity.
>>> 
>>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22
>>> 
>>> BR,
>>> 
>>> Jukka Zitting
>>> 
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Alan Cabrera]

I wonder if we can ask that incubation proposals include how they intend to get 
the message out there.  What channels are relevant for the project?  I guess 
what are their marketing plans.

Eventually, we'd have a collection of old incubation proposals that new 
podlings could use to garner ideas on how to market and grow their community.


Regards,
Alan

On Nov 26, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has to be 
> someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:
> 
> - press
> - community events
> - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
> - fast turnaround on patch reviews
> - regular releases
> - decent website
> - tutorials
> - screencasts
> - public discussion (even with self while no community exists)
> 
> Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build 
> community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write 
> code. It's a catch-22.
> 
> Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single 
> developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. 
> What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above 
> community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential 
> contributors.
> 
> I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one 
> could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways useful to 
> mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the IPMC) to do this 
> either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my opinion.
> 
> Ross
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 27 November 2012 00:22
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
>> 
>> Luciano,
>> 
>> My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard, and I 
>> don't
>> know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does, it might be the
>> comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take it on. We can barely
>> muster the minimal supervision that the board requires of us. If a PPMC
>> wants help, it might be good for it to make contact with comdev.
>> 
>> I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to 
>> continue to
>> shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the available
>> supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can consider consider
>> more of an effort to support in addition to supervising.
>> 
>> Just, however, my opinion.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende 
>> wrote:
>>> -- Forwarded message --
>>> From: *Benson Margulies*
>>> Date: Monday, November 26, 2012
>>> Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
>>> discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
>>> longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the
>>> same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to
>>> reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be
>>> retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful.
>>> We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising,
>>> mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they
>>> tell us.
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help
>>> struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way.
>>> Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities
>>> to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping
>>> and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow.
>>> 
>>> Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that
>>> sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the
>>> project is much easier compared to those other projects that are
>>> developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time
>>> and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source
>> following the Apache Way.
>>> 
>>> With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide
>>> discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help
>>> these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates
>>> for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier
>>> for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more
>>> visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc
>>> 
>>> Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> --
>>> Luciano Resende
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Luciano Resende
>>> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
>>> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
>>> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>> 
>> -

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

If we decide to give the podling another chance I would prefer to give it 
another six months rather than just one month.  I don't think that a lot can 
reasonably be accomplished in one month.   I would also like to see some 
milestones set in those six months.  If the milestones are met or not met then 
the decision at the end of six months will be less contentious.

Thoughts?


Regards,
Alan

On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:

> +1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give them
> another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the 
> opportunity
> to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that would mean
> 3 active peeps in the community).
> 
> If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire. 
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>>> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much
>>> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the 
>>> hopes
>>> that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to
>>> grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to
>>> work much on the project.
>> 
>> That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
>> community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
>> provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
>> report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
>> an alternative implementation. :-)
>> 
>> As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to
>> provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the
>> idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few
>> months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty
>> easy one to make.
>> 
>> Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar
>> discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of
>> the community did start working through all the issues and have now
>> produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards
>> graduation even though the project is still far below its past
>> activity.
>> 
>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22
>> 
>> BR,
>> 
>> Jukka Zitting
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 26, 2012, at 4:25 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>> As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven
>> months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even added
>> a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse the 
>> project
>> with more energy.
> 
> That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are
> clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of
> telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather
> ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past
> attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future
> attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of
> doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them.

OT: I don't care for the "telling the community to pick up their toys and 
leave" characterization.  Being a mentor is a fair amount of work.  Even more 
work when one is carrying out what seems to be the right thing to do even when 
it's unpopular.  We're definitely not taking the easy route here and remarks 
like yours makes things unnecessarily harder.

> If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the
> community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and
> 2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't
> have too many cycles to spend on the project.

We're talking about one developer here.  Not a few people.  If others had 
chimed in it would probably be a different story.  With that said I do think 
that you have some good questions below.

> Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to
> keep Chukwa alive at the ASF:
> 
> a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to becomec vcevwoi
> more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be
> sustainable over a longer period of time?  Why? IIUC there was some
> recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way
> to measure the expected increase in activity?
> 
> b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What
> concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new
> contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work
> better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community?
> Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases,
> improving project documentation, presenting the project at various
> venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving
> more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see
> also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether
> such efforts are working?
> 
> Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy
> (and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going
> through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the
> incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should
> start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community
> activity and diversity.
> 
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/tvs4yivabvrig7ia


I too would love to hear answers to these questions.  More importantly I'd like 
to also hear them from other PPMC members in addition to Eric.


Regards,
Alan



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Benson Margulies]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Ross Gardler
 wrote:
> Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has to be 
> someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:
>
> - press
> - community events
> - mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
> - fast turnaround on patch reviews
> - regular releases
> - decent website
> - tutorials
> - screencasts
> - public discussion (even with self while no community exists)
>
> Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build 
> community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write 
> code. It's a catch-22.
>
> Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single 
> developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. 
> What I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above 
> community development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential 
> contributors.
>
> I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one 
> could argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways useful to 
> mentors. I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the IPMC) to do this 
> either. It is entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my opinion.

My thought here is that ComDev is a source of useful advice, not a
group of people to do the work.


>
> Ross
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 27 November 2012 00:22
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
>>
>> Luciano,
>>
>> My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard, and I 
>> don't
>> know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does, it might be the
>> comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take it on. We can barely
>> muster the minimal supervision that the board requires of us. If a PPMC
>> wants help, it might be good for it to make contact with comdev.
>>
>> I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to 
>> continue to
>> shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the available
>> supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can consider consider
>> more of an effort to support in addition to supervising.
>>
>> Just, however, my opinion.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende 
>> wrote:
>> > -- Forwarded message --
>> > From: *Benson Margulies*
>> > Date: Monday, November 26, 2012
>> > Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
>> > To: "general@incubator.apache.org" 
>> >
>> >
>> > For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
>> > discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
>> > longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the
>> > same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to
>> > reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be
>> > retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful.
>> > We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising,
>> > mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they
>> > tell us.
>> >
>> > -
>> >
>> >
>> > I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help
>> > struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way.
>> > Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities
>> > to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping
>> > and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow.
>> >
>> > Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that
>> > sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the
>> > project is much easier compared to those other projects that are
>> > developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time
>> > and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source
>> following the Apache Way.
>> >
>> > With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide
>> > discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help
>> > these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates
>> > for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier
>> > for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more
>> > visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc
>> >
>> > Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > --
>> > Luciano Resende
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Luciano Resende
>> > http://people.apache.org/~lresende
>> > http://twitter.com/lresende1975
>> > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>
>
> -
> To 

RE: How to grow podling communities

[Ross Gardler]

Growing community is about "getting the message out there". There has to be 
someone in the project who wants to do that. Some techniques are:

- press
- community events
- mentoring (that is mentoring of potential new committers)
- fast turnaround on patch reviews
- regular releases
- decent website
- tutorials
- screencasts
- public discussion (even with self while no community exists)

Developing code for one's own use is all well can good but it does not build 
community and trying to build community doesn't, in the short term, write code. 
It's a catch-22.

Personally I have no problem with a podling having low activity. A single 
developer doing their thing in the incubator is not going to hurt anyone. What 
I'm concerned about is a podling that is not doing any of the above community 
development activities or, even worse, is ignoring potential contributors.

I don't think it is the responsibility of ComDev to do this, although one could 
argue ComDev should be documenting these techniques in ways useful to mentors. 
I don't think it is the job of mentors (or the IPMC) to do this either. It is 
entirely the PPMC responsibility. In my opinion.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Benson Margulies [mailto:bimargul...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 27 November 2012 00:22
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: How to grow podling communities
> 
> Luciano,
> 
> My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard, and I 
> don't
> know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does, it might be the
> comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take it on. We can barely
> muster the minimal supervision that the board requires of us. If a PPMC
> wants help, it might be good for it to make contact with comdev.
> 
> I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to continue 
> to
> shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the available
> supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can consider consider
> more of an effort to support in addition to supervising.
> 
> Just, however, my opinion.
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende 
> wrote:
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: *Benson Margulies*
> > Date: Monday, November 26, 2012
> > Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
> > To: "general@incubator.apache.org" 
> >
> >
> > For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
> > discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
> > longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the
> > same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to
> > reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be
> > retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful.
> > We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising,
> > mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they
> > tell us.
> >
> > -
> >
> >
> > I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help
> > struggling podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way.
> > Recently, I have seen an increase in trying to push small communities
> > to retirement, but i'm yet to see active mentors engaging and helping
> > and motivating the podlings PPMC to find ways to grow.
> >
> > Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that
> > sponsor engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the
> > project is much easier compared to those other projects that are
> > developed by a small group of people, that devote their own free time
> > and are passionate by the Apache brand, and doing truly open source
> following the Apache Way.
> >
> > With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide
> > discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help
> > these struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates
> > for seeking retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier
> > for new contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more
> > visibility for podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc
> >
> > Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ?
> >
> > Thanks
> > --
> > Luciano Resende
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Luciano Resende
> > http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> > http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Mattmann, Chris A (388J)]

+1 to Jukka's suggestion here. The world isn't going to end if we give them
another month, and beyond that, it will give someone besides Eric the 
opportunity
to help cruft the plan (hopefully 2 people besides Eric, since that would mean
3 active peeps in the community).

If that plan can't be achieved in a month, I'm +1 to retire. 

Cheers,
Chris

On Nov 26, 2012, at 3:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much
>> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the 
>> hopes
>> that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to
>> grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to
>> work much on the project.
> 
> That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
> community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
> provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
> report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
> an alternative implementation. :-)
> 
> As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to
> provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the
> idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few
> months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty
> easy one to make.
> 
> Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar
> discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of
> the community did start working through all the issues and have now
> produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards
> graduation even though the project is still far below its past
> activity.
> 
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22
> 
> BR,
> 
> Jukka Zitting
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
> 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Mattmann, Chris A (388J)]

Yeah my sentiments here are of caution -- seems like we need to root out
what is going on here based on the community reaction.

Cheers,
Chris

On Nov 26, 2012, at 2:59 AM, ant elder wrote:

> -1
> 
> In the vote on their dev list there wasn't unanimous support for retiring
> the project, that should be sorted out first before forcibly retiring them
> and while there are still people who want to give it a go to try to make it
> work.
> 
>   ...ant
> 
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 11:00 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>> 
>> Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote
>> on confirming this decision.
>> 
>>  [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project
>>  [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...
>> 
>> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>> 
>> 


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven
> months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even added
> a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse the 
> project
> with more energy.

That doesn't take away the fact that there are still people who are
clearly interested in continuing work on the project. Instead of
telling the community to pick up their toys and leave, I'd much rather
ask them to come up with a credible alternative. The failure of past
attempts to grow the community does not necessarily mean that future
attempts will also fail, so I'd give the community the benefit of
doubt as long as there are new ideas and people willing to try them.

If I understand correctly the problems in Chukwa are two-fold: 1) the
community isn't diverse, i.e. there are only few people involved, and
2) the community isn't active, in that even the involved people don't
have too many cycles to spend on the project.

Thus I'd raise the following questions to Eric and others who want to
keep Chukwa alive at the ASF:

a) Is it reasonable to expect existing community members to become
more active in near future? If yes, will such increased activity be
sustainable over a longer period of time?  Why? IIUC there was some
recent legal progress that might help here. What would be the best way
to measure the expected increase in activity?

b) How do you expect to get more people involved in the project? What
concrete actions will be taken to increase the chances of new
contributors showing up? Why do you believe these things will work
better than the mentioned earlier attempts at growing the community?
Good ideas of concrete actions are for example cutting new releases,
improving project documentation, presenting the project at various
venues, simplifying the project build and initial setup, and giving
more timely answers and feedback to new users and contributors (see
also my observation from October [1]). How can we best tell whether
such efforts are working?

Coming up with good answers to such questions is not necessarily easy
(and it's fine if not all of them can yet be answered), but going
through that effort should give us a good reason to continue the
incubation of Chukwa at least for a few more months until we should
start seeing some concrete and sustainable improvements in community
activity and diversity.

[1] http://markmail.org/message/tvs4yivabvrig7ia

BR,

Jukka Zitting

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Benson Margulies]

Another favor:

What are the voting rules for this case? I'm assuming that -1 != veto,
but can anyone point to precedent or documentation I'd be grateful.

A caution: I have been up since 4:15AM and it's now 7:24PM, so I'm
prone to overlook the obvious.


On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
 wrote:
> Le 26 nov. 2012 21:06, "Benson Margulies"  a écrit :
>>
>> For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
>> discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
>> longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC
>
> Based on the mentors additional info, and after reviewing the project
> activity, I am changing my -1 to +1.
>
> Bertrand

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Benson Margulies]

Luciano,

My five cents is this: growing communities is really, really, hard,
and I don't know that anyone at Apache has a recipe. If anyone does,
it might be the comdev committee. I'm not sure that this PMC can take
it on. We can barely muster the minimal supervision that the board
requires of us. If a PPMC wants help, it might be good for it to make
contact with comdev.

I hate to be such a pessimist, but I think that the incubator has to
continue to shrink until the number of podlings is in balance with the
available supervisory/mentor effort. At that point, maybe we can
consider consider more of an effort to support in addition to
supervising.

Just, however, my opinion.


On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Luciano Resende  wrote:
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: *Benson Margulies*
> Date: Monday, November 26, 2012
> Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" 
>
>
> For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
> discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
> longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the
> same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to
> reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be
> retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful.
> We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising,
> mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they
> tell us.
>
> -
>
>
> I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help struggling
> podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way. Recently, I have
> seen an increase in trying to push small communities to retirement, but i'm
> yet to see active mentors engaging and helping and motivating the podlings
> PPMC to find ways to grow.
>
> Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor
> engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much
> easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group
> of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache
> brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way.
>
> With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide
> discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help these
> struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates for seeking
> retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier for new
> contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more visibility for
> podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc
>
> Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ?
>
> Thanks
> --
> Luciano Resende
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta

[Benson Margulies]

OK, I get it. We've got that in process.

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Sergio Fernández
 wrote:
> Benson,
> everything is fine regarding Nandana, but we're still awaiting a formal
> resolution about Fabian Christ.
>
>
> On 26.11.2012 21:15, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>
>> Andy, who's missing? N. is now formally a member.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Andy Seaborne  wrote:
>>>
>>> A quick update on the Marmotta proposal.
>>>
>>> Thanks everyone for the comments.  The proposal should reflect the
>>> discussions.
>>>
>>> One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're waiting
>>> until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote.
>>>
>>> (and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking like
>>> the old timer on the projects mentor list!)
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Eric Yang]

I did a search on issues updated in the past 6 month, and here is the list:

https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&jqlQuery=project+%3D+CHUKWA+AND+resolution+in+%28Unresolved%2C+Fixed%2C+%22Won%27t+Fix%22%29+AND+updated+%3E%3D+-180d+ORDER+BY+reporter+ASC%2C+key+DESC

The community is moving forward with development even without my
involvement.  I have only written code for 4 of 29 JIRAs.  I don't think I
am only one that is involved in this project.  There are others that are
working on this project at their own pace.  Some people may have been turn
away from this project because the assumption that this project would be
retired soon.  I am not sure how to fix this mental block that was
implanted previously by past concerns.

If Chukwa is here to stay in Apache, I would recommend to make new releases
of Chukwa to improve the community involvement.  In terms of new features,
there are some data analysis examples of collected logs could also show
developers how to use Chukwa and Hadoop related technologies together to
generate insights from collected logs.  I volunteer to make releases and
let the community contributors steer the direction of the development.  Of
course, this plan can only carry out  base on the voting result in
general@incubator.

regards,
Eric

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:

>
> On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera 
> wrote:
> >> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not
> much
> >> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with
> the hopes
> >> that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on
> how to
> >> grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time
> to
> >> work much on the project.
> >
> > That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
> > community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
> > provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
> > report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
> > an alternative implementation. :-)
>
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven
> months ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even added
> a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse the
> project with more energy.
>
> The vote came after many discussions over the year.  The Chukwa podling,
> which was started back in 2010, was given its second chance.  Unless
> there's something glaring that was overlooked, I'm not prepared to change
> my mind about its retirement.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>

Re: How to grow podling communities

[Ted Dunning]

Actually, this has its own difficulty.  Sponsorship can lead to
(inadvertent or intended) domination by the sponsored developers.

But I agree completely that helping volunteer communities grow is an
important issue.

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Luciano Resende wrote:

> Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor
> engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much
> easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group
> of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache
> brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way.
>

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

Le 26 nov. 2012 21:06, "Benson Margulies"  a écrit :
>
> For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
> discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
> longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC

Based on the mentors additional info, and after reviewing the project
activity, I am changing my -1 to +1.

Bertrand

How to grow podling communities

[Luciano Resende]

-- Forwarded message --
From: *Benson Margulies*
Date: Monday, November 26, 2012
Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" 


For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the
same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to
reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be
retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful.
We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising,
mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they
tell us.

-


I believe that the discussion we should have is how can we help struggling
podlings to grow their community in a sustentable way. Recently, I have
seen an increase in trying to push small communities to retirement, but i'm
yet to see active mentors engaging and helping and motivating the podlings
PPMC to find ways to grow.

Growing communities when a project is backed by corporations that sponsor
engineers to devote their full time volunteering at the project is much
easier compared to those other projects that are developed by a small group
of people, that devote their own free time and are passionate by the Apache
brand, and doing truly open source following the Apache Way.

With my Community development hat, I would really like to see a wide
discussion on how the IPMC and COMDEV PMC could find ways to help these
struggling podlings succeed, instead of just giving ultimates for seeking
retirement. Things that come to mind are : make it easier for new
contributors to find tasks that they could work on, more visibility for
podlings in Apache sponsored conferences, etc

Thoughts ? Other possible ideas ?

Thanks
--
Luciano Resende

Sent from my iPhone









-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:21 PM, Jukka Zitting wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much
>> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the 
>> hopes
>> that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to
>> grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to
>> work much on the project.
> 
> That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
> community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
> provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
> report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
> an alternative implementation. :-)


As I mentioned in an earlier email, we did have this conversation seven months 
ago.  We came to a consensus to give it another try.  We even added a few 
committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would infuse the project with 
more energy.

The vote came after many discussions over the year.  The Chukwa podling, which 
was started back in 2010, was given its second chance.  Unless there's 
something glaring that was overlooked, I'm not prepared to change my mind about 
its retirement.


Regards,
Alan

Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta

[Sergio Fernández]

Benson,
everything is fine regarding Nandana, but we're still awaiting a formal 
resolution about Fabian Christ.


On 26.11.2012 21:15, Benson Margulies wrote:

Andy, who's missing? N. is now formally a member.

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Andy Seaborne  
wrote:

A quick update on the Marmotta proposal.

Thanks everyone for the comments.  The proposal should reflect the
discussions.

One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're 
waiting

until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote.

(and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking 
like

the old timer on the projects mentor list!)

Andy




-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Release Apache Bloodhound 0.3 (incubating)

[Branko Čibej]

On 26.11.2012 16:59, Joachim Dreimann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to request the beginning of the vote for the third release of
> Apache Bloodhound in the incubator following the successful vote by the
> Bloodhound PPMC.
>
> The result of the vote is summarised here:
>   http://markmail.org/thread/owksv6lbcs6zq7th
>
> The artefacts for the release including the source distribution and KEYS
> can be found here:
>   https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/bloodhound/
>
> The release itself is created from:
>   https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/bloodhound/tags/0.3-incubating/
>   (r1412891)
>
> Issues identified to be fixed for the next release are listed here:
>   https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/273
>   https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/274
>
> The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.
>
> [ ] +1 Release this package as Apache Bloodhound 0.3
> [ ] +0 Don't care
> [ ] -1 Do not release this package (please explain)

+1 (binding)

-- Brane


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much
> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the 
> hopes
> that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to
> grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to
> work much on the project.

That lack of concrete plans is a good place to start. Anyone from the
community who opposes retirement should take it up on themselves to
provide such a concrete plan for example in time for next month's
report. Just like the caster of a technical veto should come up with
an alternative implementation. :-)

As an example of how this can play out, see the way we asked Kitty to
provide such a plan [1] when some members of the community opposed the
idea of retirement. In Kitty nobody stood up to the task, so a few
months later the final decision to retire the project was a pretty
easy one to make.

Another example with a different outcome is JSPWiki that had a similar
discussion at the beginning of the year, and actually a few members of
the community did start working through all the issues and have now
produced their first Apache release and seem to be on a path towards
graduation even though the project is still far below its past
activity.

[1] http://markmail.org/message/smhl3cxvrgq5cf22

BR,

Jukka Zitting

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta

[Benson Margulies]

Andy, who's missing? N. is now formally a member.

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Andy Seaborne  wrote:
> A quick update on the Marmotta proposal.
>
> Thanks everyone for the comments.  The proposal should reflect the
> discussions.
>
> One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're waiting
> until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote.
>
> (and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking like
> the old timer on the projects mentor list!)
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Benson Margulies]

For those voting -1, I'd like to see, on another thread, some
discussion about just how we handle podlings where there are
longstanding issues but no consensus on the PPMC. We've heading in the
same direction on Photark, and some consensus about how or when to
reach a respectful conclusion as a PMC that a project should be
retired even if the PPMC is not of the same opinion would be useful.
We cannot both say that we need projects to have active, supervising,
mentors and shepherds and then not, in some fashion, act on what they
tell us.



On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Franklin, Matthew B.
 wrote:
> +1
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Alan Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com]
>>Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:00 PM
>>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>>
>>Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on
>>confirming this decision.
>>
>>  [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project
>>  [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...
>>
>>[1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Alan
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

RE: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Franklin, Matthew B.]

+1

>-Original Message-
>From: Alan Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com]
>Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:00 PM
>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>Subject: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation
>
>Hi,
>
>The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>
>Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on
>confirming this decision.
>
>  [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project
>  [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...
>
>[1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>
>
>Regards,
>Alan


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Bernd Fondermann]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>
> Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on 
> confirming this decision.
>

 [X ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project

  Bernd, after careful consideration, failing to successfully mentor Chukwa.

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Jakob Homan]

+1.  Whatever merits the Chukwa codebase may have, it's not got an active
community - there's just no way around that.  Eric's heroic efforts,
notwithstanding, it's time to see if it'll have success in Github.


On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Christian Grobmeier
wrote:

> +1
>
> I don't see how the project can grow a community.
> The community vote received a single -1, most others "don't care".
> With most of the community members "not caring" about their project
> and the sole active developer concurring, I believe its a better match
> for GitHub.
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Alan Cabrera 
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
> >
> > Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote
> on confirming this decision.
> >
> >   [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project
> >   [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Alan
> >
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.grobmeier.de
> https://www.timeandbill.de
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Christian Grobmeier]

+1

I don't see how the project can grow a community.
The community vote received a single -1, most others "don't care".
With most of the community members "not caring" about their project
and the sole active developer concurring, I believe its a better match
for GitHub.

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>
> Following the retirement guide [1], I now call the Incubator PMC to vote on 
> confirming this decision.
>
>   [ ] +1 Retire the Chukwa project
>   [ ] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>



-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Christian Grobmeier]

Alan,

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>
> On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:57 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>
>> Actually there is activity. Only in September 2 new committers joined.
>> Looking at SVN, there is activity too:
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/chukwa/trunk/src/main/java/org/apache/hadoop/chukwa/
>>
>> Unfortunately the most active committer - if not the only one - is Eric.
>>
>> For me (others may correct me) a successful incubator project is one
>> which manages to build up a community around it. While it seems that
>> Chukwa aims at it:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201209.mbox/%3CCAFk14gt_8bwOZ3=2bmmksjmpftovh2_s+ncrya3by9yo4hz...@mail.gmail.com%3E
>>
>> the project has not managed to get a momentum.
>>
>> On the other hand, I saw in the private archives that some legal
>> restrictions have been resolved.
>>
>> Question:
>>
>> How does the Chukwa project want to build up a new community?
>>
>> Personally - if there is a plan and interest to make community work
>> (however that looks like) - I would be open to leave Chukwa a little
>> longer in incubation. Esp. because it seems that committers can now
>> work more freely on it.
>>
>> Maybe we can make up some kind of deadline?
>
>
> Seven months ago we had this same discussion when I joined as a mentor.  
> There was not a lot of activity other than Eric and I raised concerns about 
> maybe it was time to retire the project.  A variety of excuses were offered 
> up and it was decided to wait a while and hope that the community activity 
> would grow.
>
> We even added a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would 
> infuse the project with more energy.
>
> IMO, not much changed.  The flurry of activity is from Eric every time a 
> discussion about retirement arises.
>
> As for the "now that committers can work more freely on it" is not exactly 
> clear. My understanding is that there were some patches developed at IBM and 
> those patches are now going through legal.  I tried to dig deeper into what 
> exactly was being held up and all I received was equivocation.
>
> Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much 
> activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the 
> hopes that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on 
> how to grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the 
> time to work much on the project.  I replied "To be sure, the infrastructure 
> and administrative costs are negligible.  So, we don't need to worry on that 
> account.  However, the ASF Incubator is not a place where you can hang your 
> shingle up and hope that someday someone will wander by and be interested. "  
> Chukwa has been in the Incubator for years now.
>
> Maybe that's what we want the Incubator to be.  If that's the case then let's 
> make this new policy explicit.  Until then, I will follow my understanding 
> that a project cannot just simply park itself in the Incubator hoping for the 
> party to arrive.
>

Thank you for clarifying. It's good to read a summary of a Mentor.
Actually I think you understand the Incubator as I do and what I have
read in your mail it makes sense to end incubation. As Ted Dunning
said: retiring != death. GitHub might make more sense. When the
project got more community it can come try to come back to the
incubator.

Cheers
Christian

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Ted Dunning]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:

>
> On Nov 25, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Eric Yang wrote:
>
> > Hi IPMC,
> >
> > For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by
> > mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor
> and
> > IPMC.
> > In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache
> > Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras.  Yet Chukwa has
> been
> > voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate  by the
> same
> > mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache
> > Chukwa and Apache Wink:
>
> Since I am the mentor that started the retirement vote on the podling I
> will explain my perspective.
>
> What it comes down to is actual diverse activity.  For me, the
> overwhelming bulk of the work for Chukwa was being done by one person.
>  While looking at the raw numbers the two projects seem similar, if you
> scrub the threads where we discuss whether or not to retire Chukwa and also
> look at who's doing the actual work, it seems to me that the two projects
> are not exactly the same.
>
>

I went ahead and did just that.  I read a bunch of the threads and the
pattern is that one committer does (mostly small) stuff and the few others
typically just say "meh...".

It should be emphasized that retirement != project-death-sentence.  Chukwa
might even do much better as a github project where new contributors can be
groomed more aggressively than with an apache project.

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 26, 2012, at 7:51 AM, Alexei Fedotov wrote:

> I wonder which steps were taken by mentors, community and pmc to foster a
> community. I want to learn something from this case. Thanks.

When we had our first retirement discussion early this year it was the 
consensus that we would wait until the end of the year to see if anyone would 
show up.  The reasons for waiting were not entirely clear to me but there was 
something about how the project was split off from Hadoop back in 2010.

Anyway, Eric was enthusiastic at the time and so I personally figured, sure, 
let's give it some more time and see what happens.

We also added a few more committers with the hopes of infusing new blood into 
the project.

So, we waited for more than half a year and we added new committers.  I know we 
don't have a dysfunctional PPMC or committership; the current set of members 
are great, just inactive.  Now, if not a lot of people are interested in the 
project itself then it's hard to whip up enthusiasm for people to contribute.

In previous podlings that I have mentored raising the specter of retirement has 
brought lurkers out from the background and incentivized them to step up and 
become active in the community.  For Chukwa no such result occurred.

So, what else can be done? We asked for plans or ideas from the PPMC and, as I 
mentioned in voting thread, the discussion with the mentors involved only one 
member of the PPMC.  The other PPMC members were mute with the exception of one 
member who stated that he'd be ok with it being put into the attic and the 
project moving to GitHub.

We could wait some more but we already did that and I don't think that it will 
be productive given that the project is basically flatlined.


Regards,
Alan

[VOTE] Release Apache Bloodhound 0.3 (incubating)

[Joachim Dreimann]

Hi,

I would like to request the beginning of the vote for the third release of
Apache Bloodhound in the incubator following the successful vote by the
Bloodhound PPMC.

The result of the vote is summarised here:
  http://markmail.org/thread/owksv6lbcs6zq7th

The artefacts for the release including the source distribution and KEYS
can be found here:
  https://dist.apache.org/repos/dist/dev/incubator/bloodhound/

The release itself is created from:
  https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/bloodhound/tags/0.3-incubating/
  (r1412891)

Issues identified to be fixed for the next release are listed here:
  https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/273
  https://issues.apache.org/bloodhound/ticket/274

The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

[ ] +1 Release this package as Apache Bloodhound 0.3
[ ] +0 Don't care
[ ] -1 Do not release this package (please explain)

Cheers,
Joe

-- 
Joe Dreimann
UX Designer | WANdisco 

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alexei Fedotov]

I wonder which steps were taken by mentors, community and pmc to foster a
community. I want to learn something from this case. Thanks.
26.11.2012 18:55 пользователь "Alan Cabrera"  написал:

>
> On Nov 25, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Eric Yang wrote:
>
> > Hi IPMC,
> >
> > For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by
> > mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor
> and
> > IPMC.
> > In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache
> > Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras.  Yet Chukwa has
> been
> > voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate  by the
> same
> > mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache
> > Chukwa and Apache Wink:
>
> Since I am the mentor that started the retirement vote on the podling I
> will explain my perspective.
>
> What it comes down to is actual diverse activity.  For me, the
> overwhelming bulk of the work for Chukwa was being done by one person.
>  While looking at the raw numbers the two projects seem similar, if you
> scrub the threads where we discuss whether or not to retire Chukwa and also
> look at who's doing the actual work, it seems to me that the two projects
> are not exactly the same.
>
>
> Regards,
> Alan
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:16 AM, Martijn Dashorst wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Jukka Zitting  
> wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>>> The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>> 
>> -1 The community vote [1] was far from unanimous. I'd expect the
>> community being retired to have greater consensus (or, as is more
>> common in such situations, at least indifference) about something like
>> this.
> 
> While true, I think it is important to also read the discussions on
> the private list as well. Both sides have good arguments.
> 
> In any case, I think the ppmc needs to discuss this for the next board
> report and come to consensus about the future.
> 
> -1 for now.

The discussion basically amounted to a discussion between the mentors and Eric. 
 The other PPMC members were mute with the exception of one member who stated 
that he'd be ok with it being put into the attic and the project moving to 
GitHub.  

The other exception was another mentor who wanted to reboot the mentors because 
he felt it was their fault for a failing community; to which my reply was that 
mentors advise and monitor and that the work is really done by the community 
members.

So, what we basically have is one lone developer who's virtually filibustering 
the retirement.


Regards,
Alan


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 25, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Eric Yang wrote:

> Hi IPMC,
> 
> For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by
> mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor and
> IPMC.
> In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache
> Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras.  Yet Chukwa has been
> voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate  by the same
> mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache
> Chukwa and Apache Wink:

Since I am the mentor that started the retirement vote on the podling I will 
explain my perspective.

What it comes down to is actual diverse activity.  For me, the overwhelming 
bulk of the work for Chukwa was being done by one person.  While looking at the 
raw numbers the two projects seem similar, if you scrub the threads where we 
discuss whether or not to retire Chukwa and also look at who's doing the actual 
work, it seems to me that the two projects are not exactly the same.


Regards,
Alan


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Alan Cabrera]

On Nov 26, 2012, at 12:57 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:

> Actually there is activity. Only in September 2 new committers joined.
> Looking at SVN, there is activity too:
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/chukwa/trunk/src/main/java/org/apache/hadoop/chukwa/
> 
> Unfortunately the most active committer - if not the only one - is Eric.
> 
> For me (others may correct me) a successful incubator project is one
> which manages to build up a community around it. While it seems that
> Chukwa aims at it:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201209.mbox/%3CCAFk14gt_8bwOZ3=2bmmksjmpftovh2_s+ncrya3by9yo4hz...@mail.gmail.com%3E
> 
> the project has not managed to get a momentum.
> 
> On the other hand, I saw in the private archives that some legal
> restrictions have been resolved.
> 
> Question:
> 
> How does the Chukwa project want to build up a new community?
> 
> Personally - if there is a plan and interest to make community work
> (however that looks like) - I would be open to leave Chukwa a little
> longer in incubation. Esp. because it seems that committers can now
> work more freely on it.
> 
> Maybe we can make up some kind of deadline?


Seven months ago we had this same discussion when I joined as a mentor.  There 
was not a lot of activity other than Eric and I raised concerns about maybe it 
was time to retire the project.  A variety of excuses were offered up and it 
was decided to wait a while and hope that the community activity would grow.  

We even added a few committers a "bit early" with the hopes that they would 
infuse the project with more energy.

IMO, not much changed.  The flurry of activity is from Eric every time a 
discussion about retirement arises.

As for the "now that committers can work more freely on it" is not exactly 
clear. My understanding is that there were some patches developed at IBM and 
those patches are now going through legal.  I tried to dig deeper into what 
exactly was being held up and all I received was equivocation.

Even by the PPMC's comments they obliquely acknowledge that there's not much 
activity and expressed an interested in simply keeping it around with the hopes 
that something would happen; there were no concrete ideas or plans on how to 
grow the community because, by their own admission, no one has the time to work 
much on the project.  I replied "To be sure, the infrastructure and 
administrative costs are negligible.  So, we don't need to worry on that 
account.  However, the ASF Incubator is not a place where you can hang your 
shingle up and hope that someday someone will wander by and be interested. "  
Chukwa has been in the Incubator for years now.

Maybe that's what we want the Incubator to be.  If that's the case then let's 
make this new policy explicit.  Until then, I will follow my understanding that 
a project cannot just simply park itself in the Incubator hoping for the party 
to arrive.


Regards,
Alan

Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache Marmotta

[Andy Seaborne]

A quick update on the Marmotta proposal.

Thanks everyone for the comments.  The proposal should reflect the 
discussions.


One of the mentors is not yet formally a member of IPMC so we're waiting 
until we have three formal mentors before calling the proposal vote.


(and still, ideally, looking for an experienced mentor - I'm looking 
like the old timer on the projects mentor list!)


Andy


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Ted Dunning]

I just read the last few months of discussion on the list.

I think that retirement really isn't a bad idea.  The single active
developer (Eric Y) is the only one who voted against retirement.

It really seems like this project would do better in a place like github.

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacre...@apache.org> wrote:

> >   [X] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...
>
> As others have said in this thread there's no clear consensus.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Christian Grobmeier]

Actually there is activity. Only in September 2 new committers joined.
Looking at SVN, there is activity too:
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/chukwa/trunk/src/main/java/org/apache/hadoop/chukwa/

Unfortunately the most active committer - if not the only one - is Eric.

For me (others may correct me) a successful incubator project is one
which manages to build up a community around it. While it seems that
Chukwa aims at it:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201209.mbox/%3CCAFk14gt_8bwOZ3=2bmmksjmpftovh2_s+ncrya3by9yo4hz...@mail.gmail.com%3E

the project has not managed to get a momentum.

On the other hand, I saw in the private archives that some legal
restrictions have been resolved.

Question:

How does the Chukwa project want to build up a new community?

Personally - if there is a plan and interest to make community work
(however that looks like) - I would be open to leave Chukwa a little
longer in incubation. Esp. because it seems that committers can now
work more freely on it.

Maybe we can make up some kind of deadline?

Cheers
Christian


On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:
> Hi IPMC,
>
> For the past two years, Chukwa has been labelled as non-active project by
> mentors, and has been put on votes for retiring this project by mentor and
> IPMC.
> In this year's stats, Chukwa has more activities in comparison to Apache
> Wink in both mailing list traffic and resolved jiras.  Yet Chukwa has been
> voted to discontinue by mentors, but Wink is voted to graduate  by the same
> mentor. Here are the number of mails showed up in dev list between Apache
> Chukwa and Apache Wink:
>
> Chukka
>
>   Nov 
> 2012
>
> 46
>
> Oct 
> 2012
>
> 14
>
> Sep 
> 2012
>
> 51
>
> Aug 
> 2012
>
> 64
>
> Jul 
> 2012
>
> 82
>
> Jun 
> 2012
>
> 15
>
> May 
> 2012
>
> 24
>
> Apr 
> 2012
>
> 18
>
> Mar 
> 2012
>
> 71
>
> Feb 
> 2012
>
> 11
>
> Jan 
> 2012
>
> 60
>   Wink
>
> Nov 
> 2012
>  18
>
> Oct 
> 2012
>  14
>
> Sep 
> 2012
>  2
>
> Aug 
> 2012
>  69
>
> Jul 
> 2012
>  5
>
> May 
> 2012
>  26
>
> Apr 
> 2012
>  24
>
> Mar 
> 2012
>  15
>
> Feb 
> 2012
>  21
>
> Jan 
> 2012
>  22
>
>
> And Incubation status shows:
>
> ChukwaIncubator2010-07-14865Falsegroup-1TrueTrue
> 2012-09-10760,2,413
> 4True 
> True
> True 
> True
> True 
> True
> True 
> True
> WinkIncubator2009-05-271278Falsegroup-2TrueTrue
> 2012-08-161010,4,616
> 3True 
> True
> True 
> True
> True 
>

Re: What constitute a successful project?

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 4:33 AM, Eric Yang  wrote:
> ...With respect to the voting result, but it leaves me
> puzzled that why should Chukwa be retired.  When there are contributors,
> and there are activities for growth...

Note that there's several -1s in the [VOTE] thread on
general@incubator.a.o, based on the lack of consensus that we see in
[1].

-Bertrand

[1] 
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201211.mbox/%3c852ac9fe-f6a3-4a96-b0b9-653320e47...@toolazydogs.com%3E

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

>   [X] -1 Do not retire the project, because ...

As others have said in this thread there's no clear consensus.

-Bertrand

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Wink from Incubator

[Bertrand Delacretaz]

> [X] +1 Graduate Wink podling from Incubator

-Bertrand

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Graduate Apache Wink from Incubator

[Nandana Mihindukulasooriya]

[ X ] +1 (binding) Graduate Wink podling from Incubator

Best Regards,
Nandana

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Raymond Feng  wrote:

> +1 (binding).
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> On Nov 25, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Luciano Resende  wrote:
>
> > The Apache Wink project entered incubator in May of 2009. Since then
> > it has grown the community in users, committers and PPMC members,
> > made significant improvements to the project codebase and completed
> > many releases following ASF policies and guidelines.
> >
> > The Apache Wink community has voted to proceed with graduation [1]
> > and the result can be found at [2]. Discussion about the proposed
> > resolution
> > is also available at [3].
> >
> > Please cast your votes:
> >
> > [  ] +1 Graduate Wink podling from Incubator
> > [  ] +0 Indifferent to graduation status of Wink
> > [  ] -1 Reject graduation of Wink podling from Incubator because ...
> >
> > Please find the proposed board resolution below.
> >
> > [1] http://s.apache.org/wink-graduation-vote
> > [2] http://s.apache.org/wink-graduation-result
> > [3] http://s.apache.org/wink-graduation-resolution
> >
> >
> > Resolution:
> >
> > X.Establish the Apache Wink Project
> >
> >   WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> >   interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
> >   purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with
> >   the creation and maintenance of open-source software, for
> > distribution
> >   at no charge to the public, related to enabling development and
> >   consumption of REST style web services.
> >
> >   NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
> >   Committee (PMC), to be known as the "The Apache Wink Project",
> >   be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the
> >   Foundation; and be it further
> >
> >   RESOLVED, that The Apache Wink Project be and hereby is
> >   responsible for the creation and maintenance of a software
> >   project related to enabling development and consumption of
> >   REST style web services; and be it further
> >
> >   RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Apache Wink" be and
> >   hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the
> >   direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of The Apache
> >   Wink Project, and to have primary responsibility for
> >   management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of
> >   The Apache Wink Project; and be it further
> >
> >   RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
> >   hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of The
> >   Apache Wink Project:
> >
> > * Bryant Luk (bluk)
> > * Christopher James Blythe (cjblythe)
> > * Dustin Amrhein (damrhei)
> > * Davanum Srinivas (dims)
> > * Eli Baram (elib)
> > * Michael Elman (elman)
> > * Jesse A. Ramos (jramos)
> > * Kevan Lee Miller (kevan)
> > * Luciano Resende (lresende)
> > * Martin Snitkovsky (martins)
> > * Nadav Fischer (nfischer)
> > * Nicholas L. Gallardo (ngallardo)
> > * Zhaohui Feng (rfeng)
> > * Michael Rheinheimer (rott)
> > * Tomer Shadi (tomershadi)
> >
> >   NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Luciano
> >   Resende, be and hereby is appointed to the office of Vice
> >   President, Wink, to serve in accordance with and subject to
> >   the direction of the Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the
> >   Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, removal or
> >   disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it
> >   further
> >
> >   RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Wink Project be and hereby
> >   is tasked with the migration and rationalization of the Apache
> >   Incubator Wink podling; and be it further
> >
> >   RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the Apache
> >   Incubator Wink podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
> >   PMC are hereafter discharged.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > --
> > Luciano Resende
> > http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> > http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Martijn Dashorst]

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Jukka Zitting  wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
>> The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.
>
> -1 The community vote [1] was far from unanimous. I'd expect the
> community being retired to have greater consensus (or, as is more
> common in such situations, at least indifference) about something like
> this.

While true, I think it is important to also read the discussions on
the private list as well. Both sides have good arguments.

In any case, I think the ppmc needs to discuss this for the next board
report and come to consensus about the future.

-1 for now.

Martijn

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org

Re: [VOTE] Retire Chukwa from incubation

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Alan Cabrera  wrote:
> The Chukwa community has voted to retire the project.

-1 The community vote [1] was far from unanimous. I'd expect the
community being retired to have greater consensus (or, as is more
common in such situations, at least indifference) about something like
this.

[1] 
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-chukwa-dev/201211.mbox/%3c852ac9fe-f6a3-4a96-b0b9-653320e47...@toolazydogs.com%3E

BR,

Jukka Zitting

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org