Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 12:46:40PM -0400, Hyman Rosen wrote: You know, There's only so much skill fine tuning you can do when you fight dolls. Rjack, Therekov, amicus something, and all those trolls will NEVER see this or that. Their sole purpose is to make people loose time answering them and to polute mailing lists. I'm not quite convinced of that - I suspect that one of them in particular got caught out by the GPL in the past, and hasn't stopped bawling like a 7 year old how he's really right. Another stated some while back that being disparaging about GNU was his hobby. They're paid for it. Any particular reason you say that? It's just that even the sort of people who don't like this list working properly must have some sort of standards, a level beneath which they just won't sink. There are in this world, sadly, frustrated ineffectual people who get their only sense of significance by mithering others, yet don't achieve anything in their own right. You can sometimes see people like this on local club committees, and so on. Trouble is, Usenet allows them to gather, a bit like mosquitoes over a swamp. Once they get there, erradicating them is the Devil's own job. There's only one solution for this kind of people: 1. ignore 2. zero tolerance It's not a contradiction, the solution requires both. In 1, you just have to gain a little more shielding, you're getting affected by the line noise. Instead of increasing the strength don't add up to the interference. In 2, you can do lots of things: flag them as astroturfers, trolls, whatever, or outright shut them up. I go for the flag as soon as the typical signals are caught: either direct evidence, or a defiance of logic that can only be explained with the arduous intentionality of someone who's paid to do that. As for me, I haven't read a single thread of interest in gnu misc discuss for many years. Even those that could be interesting are quickly polluted by the trolls. Yes. Depressingly common on Usenet. I'm seriously tempted to just give this list away, but I'm still (naively?) hoping the list admins would do anything, but I suspect even they are long gone. Oh no, we're still here. :-) I do moderation on some other GNU mailing lists, but not this one. The moderation is purely to exclude advertising and, occasionally, excessive swearing. Once you get into censorship, no matter how good the reasons, you are on a slippery slope to being no better than the people you're shutting out. Paul Graham http://www.paulgraham.com/ discussed this with regard to blocking lists for filtering mail; people set up a new clean blocking list because of the corruption in the one they left, and in their turn become corrupt themselves - the power goes to their head. The other thing, I think these people are posting on Usenet rather than the mailing list, and if they're not they could easily do so. The newsgroup isn't a moderated one. It would be nice to just use a kill file; trouble is, that just fixes the unimportant part of the problem. The only practicable thing to do, as you suggest, is for everybody (hi, Hyman!) to agree that the topic of the legal validity of the GPL under USA jurisdictions has been talked out, and not to rise to the baiting of these people who keep raising the topic (and who, I admit, are masters at it). Rui -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:15:32 -0400, Hyman Rosen wrote: The GPL isn't a contract. It's a license which lays out the conditions under which someone has permission to copy and distribute a covered work. If someone copies and distributes a covered work without adhering to the conditions, he is liable for copyright infringement. Rjacks argument is that because the GPL is unenforceable there is no liability, although I've not seen a clear explanation for the premise. -Thufir ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 12:46:40PM -0400, Hyman Rosen wrote: Rjack, Therekov, amicus something, and all those trolls will NEVER see this or that. Their sole purpose is to make people loose time answering them and to polute mailing lists. Oh no, we're still here. :-) I do moderation on some other GNU mailing lists, but not this one. The moderation is purely to exclude advertising and, occasionally, excessive swearing. Once you get into censorship, no matter how good the reasons, you are on a slippery slope to being no better than the people you're shutting out. The posts by the above mentioned trolls are, in general, constrained to the topic of intellectual property and copyright licensing. When ad hominen attacks are launched against thoughtful individuals posting to this newsgroup, there is, of course, going to be a return in kind. What do you think the g-n-u in gnu.misc.discuss stands for? It's a recursive acronym standing for Gnu's Not Unix. It's the informal trademark of a fervent socialist named Richard Stallman who has endeavored to abolish the foundations of intellectual property in society. So is this public newsgroup your/his personal propaganda forum? Are posters limited to chanting glowing praise for Free Software in this public newsgroup? I suspect Stallman worshipers such as yourself wish it so. Anything anyone posts that you don't agree with is quickly labeled trolling. Unfortunately one man's troll is another man's savior. Believe it or not, some folks don't automatically swoon and roll over when the great anointed GNU leader speaks. The Free Software Foundation's representatives have a long history of propounding crackpot legal theories in support of their push to eliminate intellectual property. They make specious, expansive claims about intellectual property licensing, with the goal in mind of intimidating non-believers. Obviously you wish this newsgroup to be one more FSF propaganda organ, grinding out the anti-intellectual property religion of Stallman and his acolytes. Well... it isn't. Sincerely, Rjack :) ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 12:46:40PM -0400, Hyman Rosen wrote: Rjack, Therekov, amicus something, and all those trolls will NEVER see this or that. Their sole purpose is to make people loose time answering them and to polute mailing lists. Oh no, we're still here. :-) I do moderation on some other GNU mailing lists, but not this one. The moderation is purely to exclude advertising and, occasionally, excessive swearing. Once you get into censorship, no matter how good the reasons, you are on a slippery slope to being no better than the people you're shutting out. The posts by the above mentioned trolls are, in general, constrained to the topic of intellectual property and copyright licensing. Yes. There's much more to GNU than licensing and intellectual property. Your (plural) posts on one small (if significant) aspect of the GPL are so repetitive that they are spam. Their effect is to drive out all meaningful discussion on other topics. That is Rui's complaint. Consider whether or not you want this newsgroup/mailing list to work as it was intended. Consider also whether you've been getting a kick out of all this obsessive posting, and whether it's consistent with the sort of person you want to be. When ad hominen attacks are launched against thoughtful individuals posting to this newsgroup, there is, of course, going to be a return in kind. Oh, you've noticed, have you? Just another thing: this mailing list and newsgroup was set up by the FSF to promote its purposes. Seeing as how you're using FSF infrastructure (in particular, its mailing list servers) to spread your views, perhaps some respect for that organization on your part is called for. Note that even as you continue to bombard GNU with continually repeated insults (yes, insults), there is no call to censor you, and I can guarantee to you that Richard Stallman would not countenance any such censoring, were he to express a view. Note, I'm not saying that the legitimacy of the GPL isn't a valid topic here; it clearly is. I'm saying that hundreds of posts on the topic, sometimes that many in a single week, is an abuse of this forum. If you want to continue attacking GNU and the FSF, and you've any sense of decency in you, you'll go and do it somewhere where you won't be abusing the FSF's resources. On the other hand, if you want intelligently to discuss a variety of topics relevant to GNU, I'd be more than happy to engage you in debate. [ Snip more attacks on GNU, GPL, and personal abuse of RMS. ] Sincerely, Rjack :) -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Alan Mackenzie wrote: [...] If you want to continue attacking GNU and the FSF, and you've any sense of decency in you, you'll go and do it somewhere where you won't be abusing the FSF's resources. Alan, I couldn't care less about the GNU/FSF's resource. As far as I'm concerned, the FSF/GNU could easily block terek...@web.de for the entire gnu/fsf dot org domains. I'm using resources of news.motzarella.org. Nice service. For free. Highly recommended. -- http://gng.z505.com/index.htm (GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards too, whereas GNU cannot.) ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Note that even as you continue to bombard GNU with continually repeated insults (yes, insults), there is no call to censor you, and I can guarantee to you that Richard Stallman would not countenance any such censoring, were he to express a view. Well, he would, he has expressed such views for other mailing lists and considered removing one or two members appropriate. It would be only censorship if specific posts got through, not if all posts by some members were to be deleted automaatically. ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: Note that even as you continue to bombard GNU with continually repeated insults (yes, insults), there is no call to censor you, and I can guarantee to you that Richard Stallman would not countenance any such censoring, were he to express a view. Well, he would, he has expressed such views for other mailing lists and considered removing one or two members appropriate. It would be only censorship if specific posts got through, not if all posts by some members were to be deleted automaatically. Wow. RMS while shooting Alfred in the head: Alan, after all, I've not censored him. regards, alexander. -- http://gng.z505.com/index.htm (GNG is a derecursive recursive derecursion which pwns GNU since it can be infinitely looped as GNGNGNGNG...NGNGNG... and can be said backwards too, whereas GNU cannot.) ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 12:46:40PM -0400, Hyman Rosen wrote: Rjack, Therekov, amicus something, and all those trolls will NEVER see this or that. Their sole purpose is to make people loose time answering them and to polute mailing lists. Oh no, we're still here. :-) I do moderation on some other GNU mailing lists, but not this one. The moderation is purely to exclude advertising and, occasionally, excessive swearing. Once you get into censorship, no matter how good the reasons, you are on a slippery slope to being no better than the people you're shutting out. The posts by the above mentioned trolls are, in general, constrained to the topic of intellectual property and copyright licensing. Yes. There's much more to GNU than licensing and intellectual property. There isn't anything to GNU except advancing the core belief that intellectual property and those who practice its principles are evil. The GPL is *THE* holy grail of the GNU World. Expose the GPL licensing scheme for what it is and the GNU World is relegated to the dustbin of failed socialist history. Your (plural) posts on one small (if significant) aspect of the GPL are so repetitive that they are spam. Their effect is to drive out all meaningful discussion on other topics. That is Rui's complaint. Consider whether or not you want this newsgroup/mailing list to work as it was intended. Consider also whether you've been getting a kick out of all this obsessive posting, and whether it's consistent with the sort of person you want to be. When ad hominen attacks are launched against thoughtful individuals posting to this newsgroup, there is, of course, going to be a return in kind. Oh, you've noticed, have you? Just another thing: this mailing list and newsgroup was set up by the FSF to promote its purposes. Seeing as how you're using FSF infrastructure (in particular, its mailing list servers) to spread your views, perhaps some respect for that organization on your part is called for. Although you may think that the Free Software Foundation owns Usenet it doesn't. If you don't want to read criticism posted to Usenet then unlink the FSF servers from Usenet or moderate (censor) them. I post to servers owned by Giganews. Note that even as you continue to bombard GNU with continually repeated insults (yes, insults), there is no call to censor you, and I can guarantee to you that Richard Stallman would not countenance any such censoring, were he to express a view. One man's perceived insult is another man's ode to truth. Note, I'm not saying that the legitimacy of the GPL isn't a valid topic here; it clearly is. I'm saying that hundreds of posts on the topic, sometimes that many in a single week, is an abuse of this forum. If you want to continue attacking GNU and the FSF, and you've any sense of decency in you, you'll go and do it somewhere where you won't be abusing the FSF's resources. I've never considered truthful and accurate legal analysis as abuse. On the other hand, if you want intelligently to discuss a variety of topics relevant to GNU, I'd be more than happy to engage you in debate. The GNU core belief is the socialist's dream of the destruction of intellectual property. Its leaders love to spout vitriol concerning people who hold contrary beliefs. Before you launch into a long-winded denial why not read Richard Stallman: That's unethical, they shouldn't be making any money. I hope to see all proprietary software wiped out. That's what I aim for. That would be a World in which our freedom is respected. A proprietary program is a program that is not free. That is to say, a program that does respect the user's essential rights. That's evil. A proprietary program is part of a predatory scheme where people who don't value their freedom are drawn into giving it up in order to gain some kind of practical convenience. And then once they're there, it's harder and harder to get out. Our goal is to rescue people from this. http://www.fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/bangalore-rms-transcript How about Eben Moglen: http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/ Freeing the Mind: Free Software and the Death of Proprietary Culture The dotCommunist Manifesto The DotCommunist Manifesto: How Culture Became Property and What We're Going to Do About It Anarchism Triumphant: Free Software and the Death of Copyright When you represent an organization dedicated to churning out propaganda supporting such provocative GNU ideals then you should expect return fire. Stop whining! ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 12:46:40PM -0400, Hyman Rosen wrote: Rjack, Therekov, amicus something, and all those trolls will NEVER see this or that. Their sole purpose is to make people loose time answering them and to polute mailing lists. Oh no, we're still here. :-) I do moderation on some other GNU mailing lists, but not this one. The moderation is purely to exclude advertising and, occasionally, excessive swearing. Once you get into censorship, no matter how good the reasons, you are on a slippery slope to being no better than the people you're shutting out. The posts by the above mentioned trolls are, in general, constrained to the topic of intellectual property and copyright licensing. Yes. There's much more to GNU than licensing and intellectual property. There isn't anything to GNU except advancing the core belief that intellectual property and those who practice its principles are evil. Don't be silly. GNU is primarily a collection of high quality software which is almost (but not quite) a complete operating system. The bit about intellectual property being evil is a fairly minor facet of GNU, and apart from 1 or 2 people, I don't know anybody who takes it seriously. The GPL is *THE* holy grail of the GNU World. Expose the GPL licensing scheme for what it is and the GNU World is relegated to the dustbin of failed socialist history. Ah, so you're a knight in shining armour, bravely standing up those helpless people oppressed by the wicked GPL. Where do you get all these prolix phrases like relegated to the dustbin of failed socialist history from? Have you been watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail? How many people do you think see things the way you do? Tell me, what harm has GNU or the GPL ever done to you personally? What drives you to attacking it obsessively in this mailing list/newsgroup? Do you not have some more interesting hobby to fill your time up with? Your (plural) posts on one small (if significant) aspect of the GPL are so repetitive that they are spam. Their effect is to drive out all meaningful discussion on other topics. That is Rui's complaint. Consider whether or not you want this newsgroup/mailing list to work as it was intended. Consider also whether you've been getting a kick out of all this obsessive posting, and whether it's consistent with the sort of person you want to be. Just another thing: this mailing list and newsgroup was set up by the FSF to promote its purposes. Seeing as how you're using FSF infrastructure (in particular, its mailing list servers) to spread your views, perhaps some respect for that organization on your part is called for. Although you may think that the Free Software Foundation owns Usenet it doesn't. If you don't want to read criticism posted to Usenet then unlink the FSF servers from Usenet or moderate (censor) them. I post to servers owned by Giganews. sigh. The FSF doesn't own Usenet, and I'm quite aware of that. But there's a golden principle behind all the detailed netiquette, a single overriding principle, and that is don't be a dick. You've been violating that principle on this mailing list for a long time. What you post isn't criticism - it might be, if you posted it once or twice, discussed it, then moved on. What you post is spam. Note that even as you continue to bombard GNU with continually repeated insults (yes, insults), there is no call to censor you, and I can guarantee to you that Richard Stallman would not countenance any such censoring, were he to express a view. One man's perceived insult is another man's ode to truth. There's nothing perceived about your insults - they're not to do with the other person's interpretation, they're crude insults however you look at them, regardless of whether they might be true. Note, I'm not saying that the legitimacy of the GPL isn't a valid topic here; it clearly is. I'm saying that hundreds of posts on the topic, sometimes that many in a single week, is an abuse of this forum. If you want to continue attacking GNU and the FSF, and you've any sense of decency in you, you'll go and do it somewhere where you won't be abusing the FSF's resources. I've never considered truthful and accurate legal analysis as abuse. Join the ranks of the Jehovah's Witnesses and others who have the truth and feel this entitles them to bludgeon it into others. The truthfulness and accuracy of your legal analysis, which are anything but uncontroversial, don't excuse abusiveness. But your abusiveness will certainly ensure that nobody who matters will take you seriously. On the other hand, if you want intelligently to discuss a variety of topics relevant to GNU, I'd be more than happy to engage you in debate. The GNU core belief is the
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: sigh Please think about the dictum don't be a dick. Please also get out a bit, socialise with people other than RMS and go for a reality check on what GNU is. Sigh... Now you that have repeatedly inferred that I'm a dick while lecturing me on insulting people, why not go have a nice cup of coffee and contemplate the meaning of don't be a hypocritical, self-righteous prick? No, you've misunderstood me yet again. I have imputed that you HAVE BEEN BEHAVING like a dick, on the assumption you're quite able to behave congenially too. I have commented on what you have done, not what you are, with the request that you change your behaviour. The way I see it, your complaints may be may easily addressed: 1) Get permission to moderate the Free Software Foundation's servers or; 2) Use a killfile (quick and efficient) or; 3) Continue to engage in a pissing contest with me (i.e. feed the troll), as I have a substantial amount of free time available or; 4) Stop playing big brother protector to those you perceive I've insulted since it is demeaning to them to imply they can't defend themselves or; 5) Just shut the fuck up since you are obviously a hypocritical, self-righteous prick. You just don't get it, probably you don't want to. Most people around Usenet, mailing lists and the like, recognise that basic courtesy is a prerequisite for the group/list/forum to work properly. When that courtesy is lacking, the group becomes dysfunctional, as gnu.misc.discuss has clearly become. Maybe that's what you want. Are you capable of backing off? Of recognising that other people also have rights? The world doesn't revolve around you. I sincerely suggest you ask a good friend, assuming you have one, to tell you what he/she REALLY thinks of you, and to listen to what gets said. Good night. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
Re: More FSF hypocrisy
Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: Rjack u...@example.net wrote: Alan Mackenzie wrote: sigh Please think about the dictum don't be a dick. Big dick or little dick? I like the big ones myself. Please also get out a bit, socialise with people other than RMS and go for a reality check on what GNU is. I just can't seem to tear myself away from him. Pant. Pant. Sigh... Now you that have repeatedly inferred that I'm a dick while lecturing me on insulting people, why not go have a nice cup of coffee and contemplate the meaning of don't be a hypocritical, self-righteous prick? No, you've misunderstood me yet again. I have imputed that you HAVE BEEN BEHAVING like a dick, on the assumption you're quite able to behave congenially too. That's one of the lamest rhetorical distinction without a difference excuses I've ever heard. I have commented on what you have done, not what you are, with the request that you change your behaviour. So... I'm not *really* a dick -- I just act like a dick huh? Well, I have just been imputing that you HAVE BEEN BEHAVING like a hypocritical, self-righteous prick. I have commented on what you have done, not what you are. Is everything better now? The way I see it, your complaints may be may easily addressed: 1) Get permission to moderate the Free Software Foundation's servers or; 2) Use a killfile (quick and efficient) or; 3) Continue to engage in a pissing contest with me (i.e. feed the troll), as I have a substantial amount of free time available or; 4) Stop playing big brother protector to those you perceive I've insulted since it is demeaning to them to imply they can't defend themselves or; 5) Just shut the fuck up since you are obviously a hypocritical, self-righteous prick. You just don't get it, probably you don't want to. Trolls have extremely poor cognitive skills. Most people around Usenet, mailing lists and the like, recognise that basic courtesy is a prerequisite for the group/list/forum to work properly. Ahh...courtesy. I've thoroughly reviewed the history of this group's messages and found myself to be the lone poster to insult anyone. When that courtesy is lacking, the group becomes dysfunctional, as gnu.misc.discuss has clearly become. Maybe that's what you want. If it's a dysfunctional group why are *you* posting here? Are you capable of backing off? Uhhh... you just chose alternative #3 above: 3) Continue to engage in a pissing contest with me (i.e. feed the troll), as I have a substantial amount of free time available. ALAN MACKENZIE IS A SELF-RIGHTEOUS HYPOCRITE !!! Of recognising that other people also have rights? Like the God given right to choose to use a killfile when desired? The world doesn't revolve around you. If it doesn't then it probably should. I sincerely suggest you ask a good friend, assuming you have one, to tell you what he/she REALLY thinks of you, and to listen to what gets said. I don't have any good friends. I pissed them all off when I insulted them. ___ gnu-misc-discuss mailing list gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-misc-discuss
