Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
Actually, 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM are mambiguous, NIST says not to use them and different sources define them differently. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 8:56 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:12:09 +, Billy Ashton wrote: >And in that "special" US format, I am surprised at how many people think >12:00 AM is noon instead of midnight...I can see how that is much >clearer! > Actually, noon is 12:00M. (John M.:) >>>. . . >>> I was forced to change it to the "US standard" of mm/dd/yy hh:ms:ss xM >>> (x==A or P) because nobody understood that format and it was too difficult >>> for them to understand. This was IT internal only. > Should we try dating our checks in ISO 8601? https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Hy-5NaQlpjRt9YM1i7qhVF_JctcW8Tz3xKuU-RCWLRQiXgnOtn9rDbeNkvHbTsI6ucRqFPoqrtUzOTOFofIuhMHoc582XeyDZT3YVcd2nUbdChX3OLBlMy8TeTdtMAIuPC3LyGlX042Zw28FGFkl84VIL1SZ48VKAgsLEs37bM0taAUghmOJtQ1QtXoDlRT3-xQQsvsKR-5VTTuh4XImTltgN0VmqaERSR9QwALFC9kJFxVrRXz0kP01-e0CyoSN323dSep0Ob_VvAwd-7oMPpiqIJsUVZJf3FPNwRtHXpr8UOd7RZBSLJLIRXHg5kG09Sdh3iCj4uUiKNR_Y2cCzcFT_ZLSO-seyO6VU_SNcB7YiHQPA1Q6Mf8Ne1nIT8yLxtSA_WTjcsHcMRaB2i_wvZgLbAT8rX7baSBgvEnXbp0XoXjbVHeQf_eSPHaE0bvTEWf4Opntad82HxptqpO38w/https%3A%2F%2Fxkcd.com%2F1179%2F Once, in the week before the DST boundary, I received an invitation to a meeting the week after. It specified both local and GMT. They disagreed by one hour. I submitted a trouble ticket. WAD: Generated by a Microsoft utility; not amenable to change. And the format was something like: "05:30PM GMT". Leading zero + AM/PM notation + GMT? I needed to read it several times. What notation does your operator's console display? I keep my computer, phone, and wristwatch displaying 24-hour. But I can't train myself not to mentally convert to PM. Nor to think in SI. Joke; in a builders' supply store: "I'd like to buy about fifty feet of plastic pipe." "We deal in metric units now." (after some mental arithmetic) "OK, then, fifteen meters." "Do you want 1/2" or 3/4"?" -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:12:09 +, Billy Ashton wrote: >And in that "special" US format, I am surprised at how many people think >12:00 AM is noon instead of midnight...I can see how that is much >clearer! > Actually, noon is 12:00M. (John M.:) >>>. . . >>> I was forced to change it to the "US standard" of mm/dd/yy hh:ms:ss xM >>> (x==A or P) because nobody understood that format and it was too difficult >>> for them to understand. This was IT internal only. > Should we try dating our checks in ISO 8601? https://xkcd.com/1179/ Once, in the week before the DST boundary, I received an invitation to a meeting the week after. It specified both local and GMT. They disagreed by one hour. I submitted a trouble ticket. WAD: Generated by a Microsoft utility; not amenable to change. And the format was something like: "05:30PM GMT". Leading zero + AM/PM notation + GMT? I needed to read it several times. What notation does your operator's console display? I keep my computer, phone, and wristwatch displaying 24-hour. But I can't train myself not to mentally convert to PM. Nor to think in SI. Joke; in a builders' supply store: "I'd like to buy about fifty feet of plastic pipe." "We deal in metric units now." (after some mental arithmetic) "OK, then, fifteen meters." "Do you want 1/2" or 3/4"?" -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
The problems are that nobody writes 12:00 midnight or 12:00 noon. which are unambiguous, and that different style guides give different definitions. NIST recommends not using either 12:00 AM or 12:00 PM, but rather using something unambiguous. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Billy Ashton Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 8:12 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE And in that "special" US format, I am surprised at how many people think 12:00 AM is noon instead of midnight...I can see how that is much clearer! B >>. . . >> I was forced to change it to the "US standard" of mm/dd/yy hh:ms:ss xM >> (x==A or P) because nobody understood that format and it was too difficult >> for them to understand. This was IT internal only. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
And in that "special" US format, I am surprised at how many people think 12:00 AM is noon instead of midnight...I can see how that is much clearer! B . . . I was forced to change it to the "US standard" of mm/dd/yy hh:ms:ss xM (x==A or P) because nobody understood that format and it was too difficult for them to understand. This was IT internal only. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
GMT is not the same as UTC. I would have preferred a separator space, but what is hard to read in -mm-ddThh:mm:ssZ, other than the use of UTC rather than local? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of John McKown Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 7:04 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 11:21 AM Paul Gilmartin < 000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:36:10 -0300, Clark Morris wrote: > > >I am giving a BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer on Thursday, > >September 24 in the last session period - 16:15 Eastern time zone, > >15:15 Central time zone, 14:15, Mountain time zone, 13:15 Pacific > >time, 17:15 Atlantic time zone in Canada and 17:45 in Newfoundland. > > > Couldn't you simply say GMT? What time in Arizona? Hawaii? > The Navajo Nation? ... > Why not GMT (now UTC)? You'd be amazed how many IT people don't know what that means and can't grasp it. I once wrote a report program which put out the date in the format: -mm-ddThh:mm:ssZ (ISO 8601) and I got screamed at. When I asked, I said it was the Universal time, in military format (24 hour clock). I was forced to change it to the "US standard" of mm/dd/yy hh:ms:ss xM (x==A or P) because nobody understood that format and it was too difficult for them to understand. This was IT internal only. > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
On Tue, Sep 22, 2020 at 11:21 AM Paul Gilmartin < 000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:36:10 -0300, Clark Morris wrote: > > >I am giving a BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer on Thursday, > >September 24 in the last session period - 16:15 Eastern time zone, > >15:15 Central time zone, 14:15, Mountain time zone, 13:15 Pacific > >time, 17:15 Atlantic time zone in Canada and 17:45 in Newfoundland. > > > Couldn't you simply say GMT? What time in Arizona? Hawaii? > The Navajo Nation? ... > Why not GMT (now UTC)? You'd be amazed how many IT people don't know what that means and can't grasp it. I once wrote a report program which put out the date in the format: -mm-ddThh:mm:ssZ (ISO 8601) and I got screamed at. When I asked, I said it was the Universal time, in military format (24 hour clock). I was forced to change it to the "US standard" of mm/dd/yy hh:ms:ss xM (x==A or P) because nobody understood that format and it was too difficult for them to understand. This was IT internal only. > > -- gil > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
Are they recording BOFs or just regularly scheduled sessions? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Richards, Robert B. Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 1:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE Not to mention all sessions are recorded! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 2:21 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE No good deed goes unpunished. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 9:22 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:36:10 -0300, Clark Morris wrote: >I am giving a BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer on Thursday, >September 24 in the last session period - 16:15 Eastern time zone, >15:15 Central time zone, 14:15, Mountain time zone, 13:15 Pacific time, >17:15 Atlantic time zone in Canada and 17:45 in Newfoundland. > Couldn't you simply say GMT? What time in Arizona? Hawaii? The Navajo Nation? ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
Not to mention all sessions are recorded! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 2:21 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE No good deed goes unpunished. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 9:22 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:36:10 -0300, Clark Morris wrote: >I am giving a BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer on Thursday, >September 24 in the last session period - 16:15 Eastern time zone, >15:15 Central time zone, 14:15, Mountain time zone, 13:15 Pacific time, >17:15 Atlantic time zone in Canada and 17:45 in Newfoundland. > Couldn't you simply say GMT? What time in Arizona? Hawaii? The Navajo Nation? ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
No good deed goes unpunished. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2020 9:22 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:36:10 -0300, Clark Morris wrote: >I am giving a BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer on Thursday, >September 24 in the last session period - 16:15 Eastern time zone, >15:15 Central time zone, 14:15, Mountain time zone, 13:15 Pacific >time, 17:15 Atlantic time zone in Canada and 17:45 in Newfoundland. > Couldn't you simply say GMT? What time in Arizona? Hawaii? The Navajo Nation? ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer at SHARE
On Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:36:10 -0300, Clark Morris wrote: >I am giving a BOF on COBOL and the systems programmer on Thursday, >September 24 in the last session period - 16:15 Eastern time zone, >15:15 Central time zone, 14:15, Mountain time zone, 13:15 Pacific >time, 17:15 Atlantic time zone in Canada and 17:45 in Newfoundland. > Couldn't you simply say GMT? What time in Arizona? Hawaii? The Navajo Nation? ... -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
