Re: [IceHorses] Tongue Over The Bit / Nosebands
my god. She is so right on. Backs and bits, she is THE source imo... Janice -- courage is being scared to death...and saddling up anyway--John Wayne
Re: [IceHorses] Tongue Over The Bit / Nosebands
I'm happy that you seem to have a gut feeling that using a tight noseband is a bad idea. In fact, Gina, it is a stupid, cruel, and utterly ignorant idea which is inflicted on horses by people who know nothing at all about horsemanship and who have no feeling and no care for the feeling in your horse or any horse. That Dr. Deb...you just never know where she stands on an issue...hehehe. Seriously, no wonder she's not always "popular" at her clinics. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Tongue Over The Bit / Nosebands
Dr. Deb on the tongue over the bit, and nosebands: ..in general there is only one reason that horses try persistently to get their tongue over the bit -- and that is, that they are still at the stage where they regard the bit as a foreign object in their mouth, and their response to this is to try to spit it out. When they discover that they can't spit it out, they then, because they still don't emotionally or conceptually accept having a bit in their mouth, try to withdraw or retract the tongue so as, as far as possible, to avoid touching it with their tongue. When they retract their tongue, it seems to most riders that what the horse is trying to do is get the tongue over the bit. Sometimes, the effort that the horse makes to retract the tongue is sufficient that the tongue actually does wind up over the bit; but then you will have noticed that they continue to make wierd, floppy and twisty kinds of movements with their tongue, because their real objective is still to try not to touch the bit, and having the bit up against the frenulum under the tongue is like going from the frying pan into the fire. In effect, having succeeded in getting their tongue over the bit, they don't go quiet -- which would indicate that this was their objective. Instead, it seems that just as soon as they get their tongue over the bit, they are trying to get it back under it again. In other words, they only accidentally got their tongue over the bit. If the horse does not happen to get its tongue over the bit, it will continue to retract it, and this effort causes the mass of the tongue (the tongue is the largest muscle from the middle of the neck forward) to wad up in the pharynx, which is the chamber at the back of the animal's mouth. In order to breathe, all the air the horse takes in must cross the pharynx in order to get to the lungs. If half of the tongue is stuffed into the pharynx, it blocks the airway, causing the animal various levels of distress depending upon how much retraction. The "distress" the animal exhibits will include reluctance to move, reluctance to perform at full level, inability to concentrate or pay attention (because they are worried about being able to breathe), various types of head-tossing, trying to grab the bit or yank down on the reins. I'm happy that you seem to have a gut feeling that using a tight noseband is a bad idea. In fact, Gina, it is a stupid, cruel, and utterly ignorant idea which is inflicted on horses by people who know nothing at all about horsemanship and who have no feeling and no care for the feeling in your horse or any horse. You understand from my above discussion that tying the horse's mouth shut can do absolutely nothing but intensify for the animal the feeling that he is choking or being choked by the rider. You, and all those false and ambitious competitors who call themselves "coaches" -- those who may have suggested to you that the "solution" is to use a tight noseband -- need to know that, once a horse's incisor teeth are touching, no amount of tightening of the noseband can close the mouth any farther. To close the mouth farther, you would have to fracture the jaws. All the tight noseband does is make it impossible for the horse to shift the position of his jaws and tongue, and thus to totally deprive him of the ability to give himself any relief from whatever wrong position the tongue may be in. The only RIGHT way to address this problem is to teach the horse that he can be OK with a bit -- a foreign object -- in his mouth. Tying the bit up helps the horse to accept the bit (emotionally) and to understand (intellectually or conceptually) that it is a tool of communication and not a means intended to hurt him. Tying it up does this by raising the bit in the mouth -- raising "up" toward the horse's rostrum, not "up" toward his eyes -- so that it weighs less heavily upon the tongue, and so that it is easier for the horse to feel comfortable extending his tongue out forward underneath the bit. Riding him with the bit tied up to his foretop, or tied up around the top of his nose/rostrum, you'll ride him this way for a few days and then very gradually lengthen the strings until they can be removed. You will also completely remove the noseband -- any noseband, of any kind., and continually invite the horse to open his mouth and to make chewing motions with his jaws while wearing the bit. You do this by "twirling the head", and by following an ironclad rule that EVERY TIME the horse complies with your SLIGHTEST request, you will reward him by dropping ALL pressure from the bit -- drop to the buckle or drop the reins on his neck. You take a few steps, apply pressure with the bit that is "aimed at" a particular one of his feet, and when that foot slows down or stops, you drop those reins. This is how you teach a horse to stop. You must also teach him to turn. To do this, you use an opening rein in order to make it obvious that he is to follow the feel to the side. You
RE: [IceHorses] Tongue Over The Bit / Nosebands
I'm happy that you seem to have a gut feeling that using a tight noseband is a bad idea. In fact, Gina, it is a stupid, cruel, and utterly ignorant idea which is inflicted on horses by people who know nothing at all about horsemanship and who have no feeling and no care for the feeling in your horse or any horse. You understand from my above discussion that tying the horse's mouth shut can do absolutely nothing but intensify for the animal the feeling that he is choking or being choked by the rider. You, and all those false and ambitious competitors who call themselves "coaches" - those who may have suggested to you that the "solution" is to use a tight noseband -- need to know that, once a horse's incisor teeth are touching, no amount of tightening of the noseband can close the mouth any farther. Hey Janice - looks like Dr. Deb has renewed her long-standing New Year's resolution for candor too! That pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Tongue Over The Bit / Nosebands
--- Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If the horse does not happen to get its tongue over > the bit, it will > continue to retract it, and this effort causes the > mass of the tongue (the > tongue is the largest muscle from the middle of the > neck forward) to wad up > in the pharynx, which is the chamber at the back of > the animal's mouth. In > order to breathe, all the air the horse takes in > must cross the pharynx in > order to get to the lungs. If half of the tongue is > stuffed into the > pharynx, it blocks the airway, causing the animal > various levels of distress > depending upon how much retraction. Why not just use a sidepull if it bothers them this much. It does bother Celie this much, and I'm not going to use a bit on her. Kim
[IceHorses] Tongue Over The Bit / Nosebands
Dr. Deb on the tongue over the bit, and nosebands: ..in general there is only one reason that horses try persistently to get their tongue over the bit -- and that is, that they are still at the stage where they regard the bit as a foreign object in their mouth, and their response to this is to try to spit it out. When they discover that they can't spit it out, they then, because they still don't emotionally or conceptually accept having a bit in their mouth, try to withdraw or retract the tongue so as, as far as possible, to avoid touching it with their tongue. When they retract their tongue, it seems to most riders that what the horse is trying to do is get the tongue over the bit. Sometimes, the effort that the horse makes to retract the tongue is sufficient that the tongue actually does wind up over the bit; but then you will have noticed that they continue to make wierd, floppy and twisty kinds of movements with their tongue, because their real objective is still to try not to touch the bit, and having the bit up against the frenulum under the tongue is like going from the frying pan into the fire. In effect, having succeeded in getting their tongue over the bit, they don't go quiet -- which would indicate that this was their objective. Instead, it seems that just as soon as they get their tongue over the bit, they are trying to get it back under it again. In other words, they only accidentally got their tongue over the bit. If the horse does not happen to get its tongue over the bit, it will continue to retract it, and this effort causes the mass of the tongue (the tongue is the largest muscle from the middle of the neck forward) to wad up in the pharynx, which is the chamber at the back of the animal's mouth. In order to breathe, all the air the horse takes in must cross the pharynx in order to get to the lungs. If half of the tongue is stuffed into the pharynx, it blocks the airway, causing the animal various levels of distress depending upon how much retraction. The "distress" the animal exhibits will include reluctance to move, reluctance to perform at full level, inability to concentrate or pay attention (because they are worried about being able to breathe), various types of head-tossing, trying to grab the bit or yank down on the reins. I'm happy that you seem to have a gut feeling that using a tight noseband is a bad idea. In fact, Gina, it is a stupid, cruel, and utterly ignorant idea which is inflicted on horses by people who know nothing at all about horsemanship and who have no feeling and no care for the feeling in your horse or any horse. You understand from my above discussion that tying the horse's mouth shut can do absolutely nothing but intensify for the animal the feeling that he is choking or being choked by the rider. You, and all those false and ambitious competitors who call themselves "coaches" -- those who may have suggested to you that the "solution" is to use a tight noseband -- need to know that, once a horse's incisor teeth are touching, no amount of tightening of the noseband can close the mouth any farther. To close the mouth farther, you would have to fracture the jaws. All the tight noseband does is make it impossible for the horse to shift the position of his jaws and tongue, and thus to totally deprive him of the ability to give himself any relief from whatever wrong position the tongue may be in. The only RIGHT way to address this problem is to teach the horse that he can be OK with a bit -- a foreign object -- in his mouth. Tying the bit up helps the horse to accept the bit (emotionally) and to understand (intellectually or conceptually) that it is a tool of communication and not a means intended to hurt him. Tying it up does this by raising the bit in the mouth -- raising "up" toward the horse's rostrum, not "up" toward his eyes -- so that it weighs less heavily upon the tongue, and so that it is easier for the horse to feel comfortable extending his tongue out forward underneath the bit. Riding him with the bit tied up to his foretop, or tied up around the top of his nose/rostrum, you'll ride him this way for a few days and then very gradually lengthen the strings until they can be removed. You will also completely remove the noseband -- any noseband, of any kind., and continually invite the horse to open his mouth and to make chewing motions with his jaws while wearing the bit. You do this by "twirling the head", and by following an ironclad rule that EVERY TIME the horse complies with your SLIGHTEST request, you will reward him by dropping ALL pressure from the bit -- drop to the buckle or drop the reins on his neck. You take a few steps, apply pressure with the bit that is "aimed at" a particular one of his feet, and when that foot slows down or stops, you drop those reins. This is how you teach a horse to stop. You must also teach him to turn. To do this, you use an opening rein in order to